Thread: Who Was the Most Barbaric Leader Ever?

Originally Posted by wyly

Hitler-6 to 7 million of the holocaust in my opinion makes him the clear undisputed winner

Let me say something, I actually have a pet peeve for people who confuse the number of Jewish people killed for the number of people killed in the genocide as a whole.

6 to 7 million were the amount of Jews killed.

All together, however, Hitler killed at least 12 million in his death camps, those other roughly 6 million being Roma ("Gypsies"), Freemasons, homosexuals, the mentally/physically handicapped, political dissidents (of course, such as communists and capitalists), trade unionists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Slavic people (yes, SLAVIC people).

In fact, the first people killed were not Jews but the mentally handicapped, see Aktion T4. They believed it was a waste of tax money to keep "defects" alive.

Freemasons were killed because, well, let's be honest, everyone was always suspicious of them, people still are, heck just look at all the conspiracy theories regarding them! Any secretive group is viewed with suspicion and generally disliked by any totalitarian regime. Hitler also believed they were working with the Jews. I do know that King Solomon's temple is an important paradigm in Freemasonry.

Jehovah's Witnesses were killed because Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to declare their allegiance to any "earthly" entity, such as a nation, thus making them a target of assault for an authoritarian regime, since it automatically makes them political dissidents and disloyal citizens because of their religion.

Homosexuals were seen as a "cancer" in society, sadly that is how they are still viewed in some places in the world.

Catholics were killed for numerous reasons, it wasn't as organized as other murders, but many Catholics out of morality objected to the regime, and also one thing since Catholicism has a center in the world, Vatican city, that was outside Germany, many perceived that since they were devoted to that place it was a form of treason. Never the less, Hitler was at least raised Catholic.

And one thing few people think about or even know about is how many Slavic people were killed for genocidal and ethnic cleansing purposes. Just because people were not mass killed in concentration camps, doesn't mean that wasn't part of the genocide. Hitler believed Slavic people, that being Poles, Russians, Serbians, etc, were inferior and subhuman, and believed they should be exterminated or at least treated as slaves.

When the Nazis captured a British, Dutch, French, or American P.O.W., they treated them like a normal P.O.W., but when they caught a Russian/Soviet, Polish, etc P.O.W., they treated them like animals, kicked them around, and fed them barely anything.

In Nazi occupied Poland, special educational centers were set up to keep Polish people from being too educated. Certain specifications were set in place to limit their education, to keep them to what could be considered a "slave-level" education.

But mostly Slavic people were just killed in a disorganized fashion, shootings, being round up, etc...it's shocking to know that roughly 20 million people were killed in this fashion SEPARATE from the actual holocaust/concentration camps. And it was all done for simple ethnic cleansing reasons. More Slavs died out of the racist policies than Jews did, statistically. It was just less organized. The amount of cultural genocide that happened to the Poles in particular is just not well known enough.

It's odd how most Neo-Nazis forget the anti-Slavic aspect of the Nazi regime, there are loads of Russian Nazis...it's somewhat sad and embarrassing, and just plain ignorance.

Most Neo-Nazis parade themselves as generic "white nationalists", on par with say the KKK, when in actuality Hitler was just a Nordic/Germanic supremacist. Sure, they may have allied with the Italians and Japanese, but that was more of a temporary thing for him. In the event the Axis had one, no question in my mind Hitler would have at least attempted to kill them too.

So, even if other people killed more people, I'd still say Hitler was the sickest and most twisted bastard of them all. It was blind hate, organized hate, delusions of grandeur. The intention makes the person, if it's by accident, the deaths should be mourned, but the person in charge shouldn't be held as responsible.

And then theres the extra level of the racism, racism, to me, is just much worse than killing someone for religion or political group. You can change those two things, but when it's racial, it adds a whole other level of horror to it.

Originally Posted by Kacen

Let me say something, I actually have a pet peeve for people who confuse the number of Jewish people killed for the number of people killed in the genocide as a whole.

6 to 7 million were the amount of Jews killed.

All together, however, Hitler killed at least 12 million in his death camps, those other roughly 6 million being Roma ("Gypsies"), Freemasons, homosexuals, the mentally/physically handicapped, political dissidents (of course, such as communists and capitalists), trade unionists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Slavic people (yes, SLAVIC people).

In fact, the first people killed were not Jews but the mentally handicapped, see Aktion T4. They believed it was a waste of tax money to keep "defects" alive.

6-7 million is the number of people "ordered" killed in death camps, half of those were Jews, they were definitely more people executed in the field but there is no reliable figure for those...how many were ordered executed, how many were killed as collateral damage, abuse/slave labour how do you separate those? the numbers are guesstimates, 20 million sounds high IMO.....those killed in death camps are definitive.....

first people killed were political enemies, socialists..."Night of the Long Knives" 1934

Originally Posted by wyly

6-7 million is the number of people "ordered" killed in death camps, half of those were Jews, they were definitely more people executed in the field but there is no reliable figure for those...how many were ordered executed, how many were killed as collateral damage, abuse/slave labour how do you separate those? the numbers are guesstimates, 20 million sounds high IMO.....those killed in death camps are definitive.....

No, it was roughly 6 million Jews, some estimate a little less, though estimating a little less can be controversial as we all know. Do your research.

first people killed were political enemies, socialists..."Night of the Long Knives" 1934

I was kinda referring to the first part of the actual holocaust.

Otherwise, your correct.

Originally Posted by Kacen

No, it was roughly 6 million Jews, some estimate a little less, though estimating a little less can be controversial as we all know. Do your research.

unless you're personally planning to change 60 yrs of accepted history it should be you doing the research....

total accepted death camps figures vary between 4-6.5 million and of those between 3 and 4 million were Jews the bulk of the remaining Jewish deaths are attributed to Einsutzgruppen(mobile killing squads), highest estimated Jewish death toll that I have seen for the entire war is 6.2 million...and if 6 million Jews were killed in the camps I don't know how you're going to explain the estimated 2-3 million killed outside the camps....

12 million in the death camps is fantasy, Auschwitz the biggest centre at full capacity managed an estimated 1.4 million of that 80-90% were Jews....now do your research....

I was kinda referring to the first part of the actual holocaust.
Otherwise, your correct.

how do you decide when the "actual" holocaust begins? the death camps began their work in the mid 30's primarily with political dissidents and others, how is it you have the ability to decide who is a holocaust victim?

Well since the question is who is the MOST BARBARIC, and not the person the with the highest death count. I'll choose Vlad Dracula aka Vlad the Impaler.

Originally Posted by Kanabi

Well since the question is who is the MOST BARBARIC, and not the person the with the highest death count. I'll choose Vlad Dracula aka Vlad the Impaler.

i was thinking that as well but there many many people as cruel or crueler than Vlad human cruelty knows no limits.......death count more definitive, and the Nazi's were barbaric, executing babies and children what kind of mind can do that????

Originally Posted by wyly

i was thinking that as well but there many many people as cruel or crueler than Vlad human cruelty knows no limits.......death count more definitive, and the Nazi's were barbaric, executing babies and children what kind of mind can do that????

Well the question is who was the most barbaric... and in my opinion Hitler was cruel and evil maybe even crazy, but Hitler let other's do the dirty work, and he didn't have his dinner on a beautifully laid out table amongst impaled corpses, some still screaming their last breath like Vlad.

Originally Posted by Kanabi

Well the question is who was the most barbaric... and in my opinion Hitler was cruel and evil maybe even crazy, but Hitler let other's do the dirty work, and he didn't have his dinner on a beautifully laid out table amongst impaled corpses, some still screaming their last breath like Vlad.

true enough...I recall a story about Himmler watching some executions, witnesses claimed he turned pale and ran away.....

Originally Posted by wyly

unless you're personally planning to change 60 yrs of accepted history it should be you doing the research....

total accepted death camps figures vary between 4-6.5 million and of those between 3 and 4 million were Jews the bulk of the remaining Jewish deaths are attributed to Einsutzgruppen(mobile killing squads), highest estimated Jewish death toll that I have seen for the entire war is 6.2 million...and if 6 million Jews were killed in the camps I don't know how you're going to explain the estimated 2-3 million killed outside the camps....

12 million in the death camps is fantasy, Auschwitz the biggest centre at full capacity managed an estimated 1.4 million of that 80-90% were Jews....now do your research....


how do you decide when the "actual" holocaust begins? the death camps began their work in the mid 30's primarily with political dissidents and others, how is it you have the ability to decide who is a holocaust victim?

Mmm, okay, if you say so, way I see it is I guess it doesn't matter where or how they are killed, just the reason why and they are...

I need to do more research.

Originally Posted by wyly

i was thinking that as well but there many many people as cruel or crueler than Vlad human cruelty knows no limits.......death count more definitive, and the Nazi's were barbaric, executing babies and children what kind of mind can do that????

Yay! Finally someone else agrees with me!