Thread: Here is the error in Social Darwinism

America is a huge promoter of "individual" rights. So much so that even Wal Mart is treated as an individual in courts. Well folks that's all well and good..like one poster has written "the guy down the road never did anything for me" and why should I have to pay taxes to help anyone else...clear expressions of individual rights. Very American.

In the rest of the world, however. people understand that a community of people, also have "group' rights. They can determine , through democracy and voting, how they would like their community to operate...and they do. You and I , may not like what they decide...but it is their right , and our individual rights are not considered above the community rights.. It makes sense to me. A community can decide we don't want Wal Mart here, not because it is evil, but it will change the nature of our community in a way that will be detramental.

What tickles me about some of the conservative posters here is, they demand their individual rights(which is fair) but they go and live in a community...If they were for real, they would live on their own and not need the services and benefits of a community...a community tends to provide for its residents...because the people want it that way...and the rugged individuals here, don't need others help..so why are they living in a community?

someone splain it to me.

Originally Posted by Mankato

America is a huge promoter of "individual" rights. So much so that even Wal Mart is treated as an individual in courts. Well folks that's all well and good..like one poster has written "the guy down the road never did anything for me" and why should I have to pay taxes to help anyone else...clear expressions of individual rights. Very American.

In the rest of the world, however. people understand that a community of people, also have "group' rights. They can determine , through democracy and voting, how they would like their community to operate...and they do. You and I , may not like what they decide...but it is their right , and our individual rights are not considered above the community rights.. It makes sense to me. A community can decide we don't want Wal Mart here, not because it is evil, but it will change the nature of our community in a way that will be detramental.

What tickles me about some of the conservative posters here is, they demand their individual rights(which is fair) but they go and live in a community...If they were for real, they would live on their own and not need the services and benefits of a community...a community tends to provide for its residents...because the people want it that way...and the rugged individuals here, don't need others help..so why are they living in a community?

someone splain it to me.

your community can decide not to have a wal-mart, and those that wanted a walmart have to live with that. is the reverse true? can your community decide that they do in fact want a wal-mart, and they want it right where your house is? if its what the community wants, since thats the standard you have put out, then that would be fine with both you and the law, right?

if it isnt, then explain to me please how you can make the claim that you will do whats the community wants in not allowing a wal-mart but wont give up your house for a wal-mart, if thats is what the community decides? how can you live in a community and yet not respect the communities rights?

please splain it to me.

Originally Posted by badkarma

your community can decide not to have a wal-mart, and those that wanted a walmart have to live with that. is the reverse true? can your community decide that they do in fact want a wal-mart, and they want it right where your house is? if its what the community wants, since thats the standard you have put out, then that would be fine with both you and the law, right?

if it isnt, then explain to me please how you can make the claim that you will do whats the community wants in not allowing a wal-mart but wont give up your house for a wal-mart, if thats is what the community decides? how can you live in a community and yet not respect the communities rights?

please splain it to me.

I suppose it could happen that way and it does happen that way these days when real estate corps come and buy the city council who then force some to sell so new business or condos can be built. Its not that corruption and negatives never happen in communities or any government...my question was why are these Social Darwinists living in the communities if they don't need anyone but themselves...? Not even emergency services.

Originally Posted by Mankato

I suppose it could happen that way and it does happen that way these days when real estate corps come and buy the city council who then force some to sell so new business or condos can be built. Its not that corruption and negatives never happen in communities or any government...my question was why are these Social Darwinists living in the communities if they don't need anyone but themselves...? Not even emergency services.

you didnt answer my question.

regardless, my point is its a matter of degree. you want individual rights too, I am sure, right? otherwise, when you said in your original post...

Originally Posted by Mankato

In the rest of the world, however. people understand that a community of people, also have "group' rights. They can determine , through democracy and voting, how they would like their community to operate...and they do. You and I , may not like what they decide...but it is their right , and our individual rights are not considered above the community rights.

.
you would be advocating the right of a community to restrict minorities from living there. Is that what you are saying? i dont think so.

you want fewer individual rights and more power granted to the community, while a strict individualist (by your definition) wants more individual rights and less community rights.

look at it this way. what you are essentially asking is if a conservative wants individual rights, then why doesnt he exclude the community completely? now turn that around. if you are willing to give up some of your rights as an individual to the community, why are you not willing to give up ALL of your rights to the community? pretty silly question, eh?

like I said, its a matter of degree.

In the rest of the world, however. people understand that a community of people, also have "group' rights. They can determine , through democracy and voting, how they would like their community to operate...and they do. You and I , may not like what they decide...but it is their right , and our individual rights are not considered above the community rights.. It makes sense to me. A community can decide we don't want Wal Mart here, not because it is evil, but it will change the nature of our community in a way that will be detramental.

First of all, we live in a democratic-republic, not a democracy. The difference being that a democracy is mob-rule, while a democratic-republic has democratic elements tempered by respect for minority rights.

Secondly, our founding fathers declared that we have certain inalienable rights. These rights can never be taken away, even if those who favor taking them away are in the majority (and they usually are).

My point in mentioning that is that sometimes individual rights do trump group rights.

What tickles me about some of the conservative posters here is, they demand their individual rights(which is fair) but they go and live in a community...If they were for real, they would live on their own and not need the services and benefits of a community...a community tends to provide for its residents...because the people want it that way...and the rugged individuals here, don't need others help..so why are they living in a community?

someone splain it to me.

A community means a group of individuals who make an agreement to not use coercion on each other and agree to cooperate with each other on a voluntary basis. Everyone lives in (relative) peace, nobody being forced to do anything for anyone else against their will. The community forms a government that tries, to the best of it's ability, to prevent members of the community from initiating force against one-another, but otherwise leaving the members of the community to their own affairs.

Individual rights can remain perfectly intact, even within the context of a community, as long as that community remains committed to respecting it's members individual rights.

).

Individual rights can remain perfectly intact, even within the context of a community, as long as that community remains committed to respecting it's members individual rights.[/quote]


So in other words, being the self made, hard working, don't need the help of the guy down the street, kind of guy that you are....

You don't have follow any law, including tax laws, that you don't agree with, right? Or lets put it another way, you "shouldn't" have to comply with any law that you don't agree with...right? (you do it cause you don't want to go to jail)

How do you have an orderly society without people following the laws they create? Are you for anarchy? Everyone does whatever he wants...I want build my driveway over your property line, I do so...I want to block your view of the mountains with my house, I do so...

That would be one hell of a lousy world to live in.

Originally Posted by Mankato

).So in other words, being the self made, hard working, don't need the help of the guy down the street, kind of guy that you are....

You don't have follow any law, including tax laws, that you don't agree with, right? Or lets put it another way, you "shouldn't" have to comply with any law that you don't agree with...right? (you do it cause you don't want to go to jail)

Being the social conscious person who puts societal rights above individual rights that you are, how can you live in a society that allows any individual rights to trump societal rights?

As I previously stated its a matter of degree. you conveniently ignored that post though, since it apparently interfered with your trolling.

You don't have follow any law, including tax laws, that you don't agree with, right? Or lets put it another way, you "shouldn't" have to comply with any law that you don't agree with...right? (you do it cause you don't want to go to jail)

I never said I don't have to follow any law I don't agree with. I said that I shouldn't have to obey a law that infringes upon my liberty. Income taxation infringes on my liberty to receive all the money I am entitled to as compensation for the labor I did.

Affirmative Action laws infinge on my freedom as a bussiness owner to hire whoever I choose. Yeah, and before you open your mouth, opposing affirmative action doesn't make you racist.

How do you have an orderly society without people following the laws they create? Are you for anarchy? Everyone does whatever he wants...I want build my driveway over your property line, I do so...I want to block your view of the mountains with my house, I do so...

You still lack an understanding of libertarianism. If you were to build your driveway over my property line, that would be an infringment of my property rights.

Originally Posted by Mankato

What tickles me about some of the conservative posters here is, they demand their individual rights(which is fair) but they go and live in a community...If they were for real, they would live on their own and not need the services and benefits of a community...a community tends to provide for its residents...because the people want it that way...and the rugged individuals here, don't need others help..so why are they living in a community?

Sorry it's a little off topic but my favorite Conservative contradiction is where they show all this gushing sensativity toward the itty bitty unborn feti and how every life is God's special gift. To thier credit Churches will adopt babies chosen not to be aborted. But then there is that whole surplus market of crack babies that Churches and Religious Righties ignore, and Religious Whities don't adopt. Aren't they all God's gifts? After they are through thier 1st year they don't need constant medical supervision so thier ready to go become Skippy McBuffy and vacation in the Hamptons at summer time. There are years long waiting lists for white babies, the hollywood democrat stars are adopting black babies and it's in style

Ummm I think Mankato you are taking the previous post about tax rights and "socialistic" views of Americans...a bit out of context here.

That is an economic aspect of financial freedom with the taxes. Speaking for myself...I like hospitals to be able to COMPETE because competetion brings out the best in people. If we made universal healthcare...i think the overall quality would go down.

No offense to Europeans...but the average set of European teeth I see, is not what I am aiming to have.

Now, I know this isnt going to be an academically sound economic argument...but GENERALLY speaking. Competition brings out more in people, government interference hinders that.

Why should I pay for people who cannot get a job? They are not working for me...but I am working for them? Tax Brackets are dumb.

Here in America we are founded upon the PURSUIT of happiness...not ensuring it. Life is unfair and cruel.

however, we do, as a species come together in a society to help us thrive. But we surrender "freedom" when we come into a society with rules. But I want to be a slave in order to be protected from the absolute freedom that comes with being exposed to the fury of nature.

The question is...how do you optimize personal freedom with the protection of a society?

That is where the conflict between more socialistic aspects of life come in versus libertarian aspects.

I do not think it is the job of the government to shelter the homeless. But if my community votes that I have to...then I must oblige or try to repeal it...or leave the community and make my own. In the big scheme of things though...I am not that worried about taxes....some fat cat in Washington is going to be spending it somehow I do not like...so there is no need for active revolt against my government...yet.