Zarathustra

The reason Christian dogma concerns me, or should i say, one of the big reasons, is that it seems to give evil people a free pass. To me, it seems to say that no matter how cruel you are to people, if you follow Jesus Christ and beleive he was our saviour, then it does not matter how mean you are. Does that seem right? Not to me it doesnt.

"The problem with stupid people is that they are the only one who doesn't know."
- Tick (Ironic, isn't it?)

"You do not know what genocide is, do you? It means the irradication of a race to obliviation through death."
- Tick (Tick knows his vocab words)

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lakeman

Christians will almost always focus on the plan of salvation when talking to non-christians. The plan of salvation lays out how both the obviously wicked and the seemingly good can be saved but it does not address our conduct.

Many find fault with the Mosaic law because it seems to demand a code of conduct, then they find fault with the plan of salvation because it does not demand a code of conduct. But your conduct has always just been a symptom of mistrust; lack of faith.

The law may convict a person and point them toward their need for salvation but it does not lead to a life lived well. God will attempt to motivate us all to change our lives for the better and He does not do it by writing out a list of laws.

He has given everyone a conscience to follow. He is also willing to give a person His Spirit to guide their lives. In Christian terms this is called sanctification - the process of becoming Christ like.

When a person is transformed from evil to good over a period of time this is not a free pass. This is what is intended for us all along. Those who repent and are willing to change their ways do not need a punishment they need help.

Those who will not repent cannot live with God. And this is punishement in itself. Or is it? Will those who reject God be bothered by being banished from heaven?

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

Zarathustra

1) How can ojne be "Christ like" I thought we all fell short of goodness in the eyes of the Lord?
2) Im sure getting kicked out of heaven bothers everyone since the alternative isnt pretty.

"The problem with stupid people is that they are the only one who doesn't know."
- Tick (Ironic, isn't it?)

"You do not know what genocide is, do you? It means the irradication of a race to obliviation through death."
- Tick (Tick knows his vocab words)

Oberdan

1. We can't be Christ like. Nobody can, only Christ himself.
2. Agreed.

Understand, not all so called Christians think and believe the same. Some sects have mutilated the Bible by removing books from it, and offering updated translations where the wording changes the meaning of the passages.

In most Churches, in order to be a Pastor or Priest, one must have a Bachlor's Degree in business. Lutherans are a good example of such. Instead of running the faith, they run the business of faith, which means the Church who do this, in the end, only want money, and through association, have money as their new god and master, using Christ's cloak to mass the more popular coin.

There are also those who are simply "Christians", who read the King James Version of the Bible (The 1611 translation from Hebrew and Latin texts), are Baptised (Denomination doesn't matter, only 1 Baptism counts. Do it 300 times, only needed the 1st one and that will never change), and follow Christ and God in their hearts. I am one of these, myself. I listen to nobody over how I should feel about God and Christ, I listen only to my heart. That is enough for any man, really.

The organized Christians, I a concerned for them as well. They do many good things, but it is not good deeds that make a difference. It's what's in your heart.

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freecell

lakeman

Well put Freecell.

The really weird thing here is that the whole time I was reading your post I was so glad you were saying some of the same things I just said. Then I looked up and the message I had posted was not there! Go figure. Who would want or be able to remove one of my messages?

For anyone interested in further internet study the technical term for the change of heart Freecell is speaking of is called sanctification.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

sid2112

It doesn't work that way. To receive Christ you must accept him into your heart and repent. A person who is unrepentant cannot receive Christ. A basic premise of evil is unrepentance. For example, if Mussolini was truly repentant of his sins and received Christ just before his death, he is forgiven and can enter Heaven. Note the part on 'truly repentant'. If in your heart you REALLY have remorse for the evils you have committed (and we all have) and repent, admitting them before God and cease doing it, then you can receive God. It's not something you just say, it's something you feel.

Who's awesome? I'm Awesome!

Zarathustra

What I am saying is that, since we do not know definitivley as to whether there is an after life and that for the time being we are here, I am concerned that a person will think he has the right to be an asshole to everyone since he beleives hell go to Heaven anyways.

"The problem with stupid people is that they are the only one who doesn't know."
- Tick (Ironic, isn't it?)

"You do not know what genocide is, do you? It means the irradication of a race to obliviation through death."
- Tick (Tick knows his vocab words)

lakeman

[quote=Zarathustra;186489]

edited and posted below

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

lakeman

I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. I thought you meant if they were forgiven at the last moment why should the be allowed to go to heaven.

Pretending you believe in the Bible and being a jerk are totally compatible.
Thinking you believe the Bible (when you don't) and being a jerk are also totally compatible. But thoroughly understanding it and believing* it are incompatable with being a complete jerk. Do people who undestand it and believe it make mistakes? Yes. But if their lives are characterized by un-Christ-like behavior then they are not Christians. It is not that the works make them a Christian or saves them but the works follow from the faith.


The bible says: "14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do? 17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless."

Romans 6 is a lengthy discussion of this question since some early Christians were wondering the same thing and even being mislead by some who advocated exercising one's "freedom" to sin.


* I am using "believe" here to include the idea of trusting God.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-