The_Bear

I could give you the email of a rabbi if you want.
I know more than a few.

I am what?

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anonnymous

Sure PM me and thanks.

Right now I'm having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.

I think I've forgotten this before.

Desidude666

Are you joking? After it is a proven fact how Mohammed plagiarized from the Jews and stole key concepts? Muslims used to pray facing Jerusalem until his cult expanded and his status grew.

In comparison, Quran seems like a poor attempt at re-invention. You cannot steal from someone else, modify his ideas and then claim that your idea is better. For a religion that states that music is unreligious, the claim that someone else's religion is corrupt is one step too far.

What you are, you are by accident of birth; what I am, I am by myself. There are and will be a thousand princes; there is only one Beethoven. - Ludwig van Beethoven

lakeman

Perhaps you could show us some clear examples.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

Desidude666

What specific examples do you want? The concept of monotheistic plagiarizm when Muslims were praying to about 300-400 God/s and goddesses at Mecca? Or do you want to know how Mohammed, through his trade, which he inherited from his 40-year old wife (widow and had a son), learned Jewish concepts? Or examples that his visit to this cave was in solitude and he was always alone when St. Gabriel visited him..? Or examples of how during that time, St. Gabriel was one of the most popular 'angels' known as a 'messenger'? Or the example that he rode a flying unicorn and visited Jerusalem overnight and then meeting God in his kingdom before being sent back? Or the example that he claimed to have met every prophet, including Yeshua in heaven when he rode the unicorn which flew him above (no right hand throne, as far as I know), which was obviously concocted after meeting Christian missionaries?

Or do you want examples of how the first muslims were raiders who used to rob from other trading caravans? Or do you want to know that Mohammed was only threatened by tribes who knew his true motives, power mongering? Or examples of how he and his followers were not killed but banished and how he expanded his 'teachings' outside Mecca amongst peasants who had no idea about what they were following. Or examples of how he then led his followers to raid Mecca and *kill* non-followers or convert at the threat of death or banishment into the desert?

Or perhaps examples of his intolerance when he raided Mecca and destroyed every single statue of a God/Goddess but keeping a black stone which they worship around the tent? Or maybe example of how his poetry was also plagiarized from other Muslim scholars? Or examples of how it all was really power mongering as intended because of the current Shia - Sunni division? Or examples of how he looked to retain power by appointing 'successors' (to what...? God? Give me a break... wasn't it St. Gabriel who came to him, or was he born to lead? Fraudulent.) Or examples of how he then diverted all muslims from facing Jerusalem prayers once he got the numbers suited to retain power and influence in the Middle East?

Or examples of how Muslim invaders had been behaving in Asia? Or examples of why the Hindu Kush is called the Hindu Kush? Or what happened to Hindu women and children in Asia? Or the South Asian history of Moghul invasion? Or the examples of how temples such as the Golden Somnath of the Indian continent was raided, destroyed and pillaged (along with thousands and thousands of places of worship)? Or examples of how the Wahhabis are justifying their rule on the account of Islam? Or perhaps how far and wide Muslim intolerance, more or less, is evident in today's society?

Or examples of how you can easily walk into a Church, Hindu Temple, Buddhist Temples and a host of other places of worship but not a mosque? Or, finally, examples of what happens to people of other faith in Saudi Arabia?

What examples do we discuss?

What you are, you are by accident of birth; what I am, I am by myself. There are and will be a thousand princes; there is only one Beethoven. - Ludwig van Beethoven

The Illuminator

I think you must examine the history of Islam and the life of Hz.Muhammed S.A.V. from other sources than anti-Islamic propoganda sites. You must also learn the basics of Islam Religion.

Let me remind you some.

1-all Muslims approve Prophet Moses(Hz.Musa A.S.) Prophet Solomon(Hz.Suleyman A.S.) and other Prophets of the Jews like Jakop(Hz.Yakub A.S.) or Abraham(Hz.Ibrahim A.S.) as the prophets Allah C.C. has sent prior to Hz.Muhammed S.A.V.. Allah is the only God who has sent those Prophets to guide humanity clan by clan to His illumination and only true path.

2-all Muslims also approve Jesus(Hz.Isa A.S.) as another Prophet who has been sent before Hz.Muhammed S.A.V..

3-two facts above declares that God of Judaism and Christianity is Allah C.C. and He has sent those two religions to guide humanity clan by clan to His illumination and only true path before He has sent Islam, the last religion of the only God, Allah C.C.

4-the facts above are mentioned in the verses of Kur'an as well, and also it has been declared in Kur'An that, Islam and Kur'An has been sent by Allah C.C. after the former religions has been 'damaged' and the former holy books like Talmud and Bible has been 'damaged' and 'rewritten' by illiterate Rabbis and Priests. Allah C.C. says in Kur'An that those religions has been damaged and the holy books of them mentioned above has been rewritten by sinners who dare to change the holy book Allah C.C. has sent. He also says that Kur'An 'includes' the 'undamaged' and 'original' forms of the former holy books like Talmud and Bible, so it is natural that as a miracle of Allah C.C., the most perfect and original religious orders of Allah C.C., some of which were also mentioned in Talmud and Bible, are completely included in Kur'An, and that's why illeterate and misinformed fanatical Jews and Christs claim that Hz.Muhammed S.A.V. who didn't know how to write or read before Jebrail A.S.(angel Gabriel) has come to declare Him that He is the last Prophet of Allah C.C.. In that day in a cave in Mount Hira of Meccah, He, again miraclously has learnt to read at the second Jebrail A.S. told Him ''Iqra.Iqra with the name of Allah who is the creator. He has created you from a clot of blood.''

5-as Kur'an includes the original forms of Talmud and Bible, it is natural that some undamaged verses of Talmud and Bible are included in Kur'An, as the God of all those three Holy Books is Allah C.C., His orders are naturally supposed to be in the same manner in all of the Holy Books He has sent. After seeing this with your own eyes, insead of making laughable claims like ''Prophet Muhammed S.A.V. has stolen the information in the Talmud and Bible'', you must recognize that the sender, the God of Kur'An and Islam, Allah C.C. is the same God who has sent Talmud and Bible.

6-Prophet Muhammed S.A.V. has 'never' lied thoughout His life, and He has been known as ''Muhammed-ul Emin''=''trustable Muhammed'' amongst the people who knew Him. They used to give their valuables to Him even before His declaration of being the last Prophet of Allah after Jesus(Hz.Isa A.S.), as they knew that He would 'never' steal and they used to make Him the judge, when they were to argue, even before His declaration of being the last Prophet, as they knew that He would 'never' lie, or judge unjustly. If you examine His bright and stainless life, you would recognize yourself claiming such a person to be a 'thief' is a claim only an insane may make. Such claims are laughable only, as His mentioning of Kur'An verses, which were also has been told by Allah C.C. in Talmud or Bible, is 'not' theft, is a 'pure miracle' all may recognize easily. Also a Christ Priest Bahera has recognized Hz.Muhammed S.A.V.'s difference while a cloud miraclously shadowing Him in the middle of the desert when He was about 20-25 years old, 15-20 years before angel Jebrail A.S. has come to declare Him that He is the last Prophet. Priest Bahera has said to the people accompanying Hz.Muhammed S.A.V. at that time in Sham that, ''This young man possesses all of the features the last Prophet who is mentioned in Bible, who has been declared to come after Jesus. Observe and protect Him as He shall be declared as the last Prophet of our God soon.'' I think you were also unaware of this fact as you probably know 'nothing' about the life of Hz.Muhammed apart from mad fairy tales sang in anti-Islamic propoganda sites. This verse of leastly damaged or undameged Bible is kept and hidden in Vatican in Rome, to prevent humanity from discovering Islam. This would cause all clever Chrsits to be Muslim, and that's why Popes have hided and has been hiding this reality for ages.

I have reminded those above after supposing that you are not an Islam hater who willingly and consciously try to attack and insult Islam and Muslims, and do that even if you know those realities above.

7-if we are to make such low IQed claims, we must also claim that Jesus(Hz.Isa A.S.) has stolen the knowledge which were included formerly in Talmud and He has learnt it from the Jew Rabbis. Such claims are very very low IQed and I generally don't take such claims seriously as I approve both Hz.Isa A.S. and Hz.Muhammed S.A.V. as the last two Prophets of Allah C.C. who has sent all of those three religions in an order after the former one was damaged and rewritten by humans(Talmud, Bible and Kur'An-i Kerim).

The Illuminator

Democracy starts with allowing different political opinions to express themselves.
Fascism starts with killling all, having different political opinions than yours.
It's a pity for earth as it is full of fascists claiming to be democratic.

Desidude666

Basically, these are facts as researched on by the BBC and a couple of really secular sources.

There is a problem with your statement. It's not Allah but Yahweh, you cannot hijack the Jewish lore and then claim that yours is the 'true' faith. You are plagiarizing - but worst, you have modified their belief system without their permission, just like the Christians. That's plagiarism - the Jews don't recognize Mohammed or Yeshua. So in a proper system, you should not then use their past as yours - because they've rejected your system.

Which again, is the same process of linking yourself with for authenticity.

Facts and a little understanding by actually *reading* their literature will tell you that your 'God' is not the same one as Yahweh, or Jesus (since he is God). Mohammed plagiarized from the Jews and the Christian missionaries, simple historical fact.

And Allah is not the only 'God' - I don't believe in him because your founder stole this idea from the Jews. I prefer to believe in Yahweh than even consider Allah.

Correction, Moses met 'God' himself. It could have been the Devil instead of St. Gabriel. Whoever has seen St. Gabriel at all? How do you know it's St. Gabriel or someone (or his imagination or some mental problem)? It isn't like there was evidence. If I go to the cave and claim that I have seen 'God', would you believe me?

If no, why do you believe in Mohammed? Don't be so simple in your belief.

Don't mistake the gospels from the Bible. Constantine commissioned the Bible while the Gospels were always available. Gospel of Thomas or Gospel of Mary Magdeline didn't even make it in the Bible, so it's not an authority in Christian beliefs, which in itself too different to Islam. But it does have a better track record in terms of modernization.

You don't know if he didn't 'lie'. Everyone lies, so that's an impossible claim for someone you've never met.

Remember, those times the deity you prayed to affected your social standing so anything that more or less equated people in religion was welcome and the Jewish and Christian missionaries provided the right information for this system.

It's an open and shut case here. It's plagiarism - but you have a right to your belief, which I can live with.

I don't hate anything, let alone Islam. I don't think a person who points to plagiarism has a low IQ, because to understand plagiarism, you have to attend college. I don't think Islam is the same as Christianity or Judaism.

If it isn't the same, it's different - so stay so - different. Don't cherrypick one or two fairytales and then be radically different for your modern identities.

You either adopt it all to call their 'God' yours, or admit that it's not the same 'God'.

What you are, you are by accident of birth; what I am, I am by myself. There are and will be a thousand princes; there is only one Beethoven. - Ludwig van Beethoven

lakeman

No. What I want is an example of plagiarism.

You know where Mohamed writes something that was previously written by the Jewish texts and then claims it for his own.

This would require you to actually post a portion of Mohamed's writings and then to post a portion of the Jewish writings and show us that he stole it.

Now we all know that I am no defender of Islam so I am hoping that you can provide something credible. My objective here is to get you to make some posts that actually go beyond broad aspersions and slurs and really say something. Did Mohamed plagiarize? Then show us. But don't just say it and then move on to more aspersions without backing up your first. To actually back up what you say with facts that are relevant and logical is a great skill that we all need to hone.

My greatest hope is that after you become adept at this skill you can evaluate Christianity in a new way and come to accept it. So far I do not think that you have done your due diligence. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you are stupid or whatever. Quite the contrary. In you I see potential.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

roobarb

I am going to keep this simple. Your quotes are all false as to the Talmud. You have deliberately misrepresented what it actually states. The intent is clear with the above representations-to try suggest Jews believe it is acceptable to be deceitful and hurt and abuse non Jews.

The source of your text that misquotes the Talmud in its entirety comes from the following hate site:

The Truth About the Talmud: Judaism's Holiest Book

The above hate sight is part of the Aryan Brotherhood, KKK network of racist, white supremacists, who also despise all people of colour, women gays and catholics.

An example of how this hate literature is recycled and used on other white supremacist hate sites can be found for example on the KKK web-site;

Chapter 16: Jewish Supremacism

You want to come on this forum and propogate with hate site literature from the Aryan Brotherhood I suppose that is freedom of expression. However your attempts to portray yourself as a religious Muslim and authority on the Talmud let alone the Christian gospel is pathetic.

I defer to the Christians on their gospel which I also believe you have misquoted, misrepresented and taken out of its true context.

For a concise explanation as to how hate mongers such as the above falsely misquote the Talmud to try incite hatred against Jews can be found at;

http://www.come-and-hear.com/supplement/adl-talmud.pdf



You can also refer to;

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To understand why it is being recycled by the above and presented in the context of an alleged religious Muslim quoting the Koran you may wish to refer to;

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal..._ind_1107e.pdf
and specifically page 6.

The exercise of deliberately creating false quotes and attributing them to the Talmud to suuggest Jewish religion teaches Jews that gentiles are inferiors to be hurt and abused is as ancient a form of anti-semitism as it gets.

The above attempt at inciting hatred is a stale old version of the Jews drink the blood of gentile children and are sexually molest non Jews as part of our religious practices.

Sorry to disappoint. I don't drink blood or have sex or try rob gentiles. I do though try annoy some of them, namely the putz above who started this thread.

roobarb

Lakeman I do not allow such people to distort the teachings of Christianity to inspire me to hate Christians any more then I woudl let it distort the teachings of Islam to inspire me to hate Muslims. I may disagree with many of your opinions, but you know you do not need to defend the Gospels to people like me who know as much as we disagree with some of your interpretations we know you would not use your religion as this hate monger claims to use his.

For me I try find the common themes of peace and tolerance in all holy books but is precisely humans like the person above that lead me to believe no human is in the position to claim to be holy or righteous.