mjollnir

Sorry but throughout history it was those who followed and believed in christ that has shed more blood than anyone else in recorded time!

NO ONE will stone ANYONE until I blow this whistle. Even, and I want to make this perfectly clear, even if they DO say Jehovah!!!

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Zaragrunudgeyon

They commited violence IN THE NAME OF CHRIST.

They were not true believers.

DRILL, DRILL, DRILL!

"I don't want them punished with a baby" -BH-Obama.

"Vegetarian" - Old Indian word for -- *bad hunter*

Obama = reparations.

Global warming? -no complaints here.

caffeine

It depends what we're discussing by holes here. It's trivially easy to demonstrate that the gospels are not literal and infallible and were written by men - by pointing to slight differences in detail between them - Jesus sending out the disciples in Mark with the instruction to take nothing but staff and sandals whilst in Matthew he instructs them to take neither staff nor sandals, for example*.

This, of course, doesn't demonstrate that the events described within aren't still basically real - just that people writing them down decades or centuries later aren't going to get the details all precise.

But once we've accepted that the stories are based on hearsay and faulty memory, and not the infallible word of God, I don't see how it makes sense to hang such a bizarre and involved belief structure on them, especially seeing as you have never given any reasons at all why this particular bunch of superstitious nonsense is distinguished from thousands of other pieces produced through the years. The fact that a book is influential and widely believed does not mean it's consistent or that it makes any sense. Merely looking at the world around you will demonstrate that there are always millions of people willing to sacrifice their lives and livelihoods for beliefs clearly based on fraudulent nonsense.

This website is instructive. It's an account of the Fox Sisters being visited by spirits in the 19th century. This account was written recently, in an age of scientific scepticism in which people have reams of information at their fingertips and information is mass produced instead of only being transmitted by hand copies. Despite this, it still treats the spiritual visitations as real, historical events; even 130 years after the Fox sisters admitted it was all a hoax and demonstrated the method by which they perpetrated this hoax.

*Of course, if you're up for insisting on strict literalism anyway you can argue that these were different 'sendings out'. If you want to go down that route I'll have to go look up some passages to demonstrate my point.

lakeman

I assume this is the post that you wanted me to respond to.

You did not name the emperor so I am also going to assume you are talking about Constantine in the year ~400.

The reason I did not respond to this is because the idea that Constantine instructed his group to fabricate Christianity is poppycock.

The books of the bible were written before constantine, they were distributed outside of his sphere of influence before constantine, and the list of what to include in the canon was generally agreed on before constantine. The council at Nicea did assemble the books into a cannon that affirmed the generally agreed on canon but the people who did it had more independence that you seem to assume. There are other canons in existence today (for example the Catholic bible is one canon and the Protestant bible is another), you are free to use any assembly of books you want or to read them all as individual works - it makes no difference.

As just one example or detail to back up what I just said above. The dead sea scrolls contain copies of books of the bible. They were sealed up and lost hundreds of years before constantine was born. He never saw them nor knew they existed. There is no way that Constantine could have altered or done anything at all to the dead sea scrolls. From the dead sea scrolls we can look at other copies of the bible that have been placed into various canons and are in circulation around the world and determine with close to 99% accuracy the content of the original letters. Not only did constantine not alter the dead sea scolls but he did not alter the letters in the bible.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

lakeman

Just for clarity I do not believe Zaragrud... to be a Christian. First, just by looking at his posts it is clear that he is not influenced by the spirit of God to any significant degree, and not a follower of Christ, and two, the church he belongs to is considered to be a cult by mainstream Christians because it distorts the identity of who Jesus is.

IMO, he is not an example of what or who a Christian is but an example of what or who a person who falsely claims to be a Christian is.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

lakeman

Not only is that almost impossible to measure given the dificulties of determining who is a Christian and who is just making that cliam.

But even if we count the various crusades and inquisitions as having been perpetrated by Christians you have not demonstrated that they constitute more than the ones perpetrated by all the other groups. Why WWII alone spilled more blood than all the crusades and no one is going to argue that WWII was anything other than a political war between many nations.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

lakeman

I assume you are talking about these passages (underlines mine):

Mark 6:

8(A)and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff--no bread, no bag, no money in their belt-- 9but to wear sandals; and He added, "Do not put on two [a]tunics."
10And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town.

Here He is telling them not to pack a lot of stuff to take along on the trip.

Matthew 10:

You received without paying; give without pay. 9(N) Acquire no gold nor silver nor copper for your belts, 10no bag for your journey, nor two tunics[c] nor sandals nor a staff, for(O) the laborer deserves his food.

So here He is telling them not to acquire these things (except food) as payment for what they do, not even sandals nor a staff.

So what is the trivially easy detail that demonstrates that it is fallible? Could it be that the detail that demonstrates this fallibility only exists in your use of the word "take" in two passages where it is not justified?

By the way, I know of no one who claims that the translations we have are infallible. People claim that the originals as written are infallible.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

caffeine

Then you don't listen very hard. Lots of people believe there are infallible translations. How I Know That The King James Bible is the World of God, published by the Bible Baptist Church of Sharon, Tennessee. The Vulgate is (or at least was) considered infallible by the Catholic Church; whereas the English language version most commonly presented as infallible by Protestants* is the King James.

I'm about to finish work - will get back with more tomorrow.

*Those who believe there are infallible translations, that it.

lakeman

Excuse my hyperbole and laziness, please . Of course there are a few small groups who believe that. And the vulgate is past tense.

SO I will be happy to recant and rephrase:

Virtually no one claims that any modern translation of the bible is infallible.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

mjollnir

It is not. This was the first organization of the religion and, under his order, the books were gathered together into one volume. Not even half of what was being distributed prior to Constantine found it's way into the New Testament.

The only difference between the catholic Bible and the Protestant is in the Old Testament. Nothing to do with Christianity as a whole. Whether or not the Protestants want to believe this but the entire dogma of Christianity....including the divinity of Jesus was constructed by the church in Rome.

Of course there could have been more than one copy of the texts...especially if they were being distributed amongst the different "sects." However, to claim that the letters, especially Saul's letters (or Paul as you all love to call him) are a credible source and accurate is not to deal in reality. You have thousands of years and a defuct language to contend with. I also have a hard time with these so called "miracle conversions" such as Saul of Tarsus. You go from persecuting christians to becoming one of them because of this mysterious light on the road? Come on. Let's deal in reality. How come God literally spoke to people back in biblical times but he doesn't do it now? And if you say you have talked to God and he talked back....a straight jacket is in your future. Saul of Tarsus was an opportunist, just like Constantine and the church as a whole when it began. If it was not interested in controlling the masses, why are ALL of it's holidays pagan holidays as well as the names of the days of the week names after pagan deities?

NO ONE will stone ANYONE until I blow this whistle. Even, and I want to make this perfectly clear, even if they DO say Jehovah!!!