Christopher

Excellent post; deserves a green. Just to add to the discussion somewhat about the“literal” and “metaphorical” differences in the Bible. In determining the differences I find it important to ask the questions: Is this important enough to know whether it is real or metaphorical? Is it important with regards to being “saved”?

Will knowing Moses parted the Red Sea “save” me? Not really, which is why I think our focus should be on the more important parts of the Bible that are necessary to understand for salvation.

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Christopher

bla bla

Why would a benevolent God exclude souls from Heaven because they
did not worship him?
How does subservience to religion make one good man superior to another
good man even if they conducted their lives exactly the same in all other
respects?
If worshiping God is what makes two identically good men different how
does God explain His desire for worship just for its own sake?

lakeman

Several things:

First, there are no good men. All are bad. Me, you, Christians, non-Christians - all.

Second it is not the worship of God that saves. Worship has value but it is not the thing that salvation is hinged on. Granted the definitions of worship and faith and trust all overlap so don't go trying to pick that apart it would just end in a mass of semantics.

Faith is what saves. So let's look at that. Faith is most related to the concept of trust. It is whe3n you believe something not because you have seen it but because of the evidence that cannot be seen. It is not reckless because there is still evidence. But it does require that one accept what comes from inside them rather than rely solely on what is empirical.

God says such and such is wrong. Sometimes he said so within the Law that was given to the Jews. But for most of us that is irrelevant to non-jews so lets just look at the law above that Law. Let's stipulate for a moment that there is at least one thing that is moral and that God has placed a knowledge of that within every person; Everyone knows that there is a right and a wrong and they know that they have done at least one wrong.


Knowing that you have done wrong what is the moral response? Is it to keep doing wrong? Is it to pretend that nothing happened? Is it to go back and admit that one has done wrong? This last one is the only right answer and it is the only one that is built on faith. One must trust that God first communicated the knowledge of right and wrong and trust that God will forgive before any admission of guilt makes sense. One must also trust God has one's best interest at heart before changing ones ways makes any sense. Without the faith in God as lawgiver and forgiver repentance makes no sense. The corollary makes sense too; how could God forgive those who refuse to admit that there is a wrong, refuse to admit they have done wrong, and refuse to believe that he loves them and is willing to forgive them? The bible says that grace comes through faith. It is a neccessary conduit for forgiveness.

There are some who are in rebellion and there are some who are not. Those who are in rebellion have done all that I spoke of above and they have chosen not to have a good relationship with God. It is they who reject Him. He is waiting and longing for them to come back. He has enacted a plan to bring about their return. Faith was always a part of that plan, it still is, and no compelling evidence will be given because that would negate faith. You must believe based on faith and not because God's thundering voice emanates from the sky - that would not be faith. But the choice is still their's to make. They can be with God or they can be without God. Notice that either way they will be. Our souls are eternal we have no choice but to be and to continue after death. Being with God is the definition of heaven and being without God is the definition of hell.

Ok so you asked what the value of worship is. God created the whole grand universe and he created it perfect when it was first created. It has been corrupted and he has enacted a plan to fix that. He loves you and wants you to benefit from that plan. He is the epitomy of good and powerful and wonderful, etc.

If something is blue and knowing that you call it red you have created a falsehood. An offense against the truth. If something is good and you fail to find the good then you have created an offense against the good. Because God is all the things I just said he is then failing to recognize that is a mistake at best. The value of worship is that it recognizes God for who He is.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

lakeman

Studying the text with your mind can certainly be useful. But there are some people with pretty low IQ's who have understood the message of the gospel and there are some people with pretty high IQ's who completely miss it.

One's attitude and willingness to comprehend are factors too. I have seen several on this board who are quite angry and have a poor attitude concerning Christianity, people who are just unwilling to understand - and it shows. Yes that is a factor too.

But the bible says that God sends a "paraclete" a helper, a comforter, an advocate, the Holy Spirit, to allow us to see the truth when otherwise we would miss it. Freecell is right that this is the most important factor. This is not magic. Calling the Holy Spirit magic is insulting. You are too smart not to know that it is insulting. So I guess this is just your attitude showing through.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

bla bla

Logical error, there are no absolutes. Saying ALL mankind is sinful or bad
is either rhetoric to justify demanding worship for entering heaven, or just
childish reasoning.

Your right, it's all semantics and rationalization.
"Faith" in the case of unseen Gods is the act of believing- trusting that
something exists without proof.
However the concepts are twisted and colored one thing remains true:
the relationship one has with a God is to worship, or not believe. Thats
what a God is.
Whether you trust, have faith, or believe in God it's all the same question:
do you worship this God? That is the only relationship available.

And once you have faith the only relationship available is worship: what
God charges for a ticket to heaven.

Subservience to religion make one good man superior to another good
man in the eyes of God.

If you create a doctrine that makes everything a sin then I guess so. It's
all very convenient the way Christianity is structured so that no person
gets into heaven without being loyal to the Church.

Actually the understanding of morality, or conduct based on right and
wrong is not dependent on a concept of God.

Again the assertion is that the ability to be good is stripped away by God.
The only way to being moral is through Him, as if morality cant exist
independent of those who worship God.

A closed universe cant be "corrupted" by something within it. All that is
possible is for some native (natural) element to gain or lose territory.

The only way Gods plan could be corrupted would be by another God. Is
Satan a God?

Christopher

Sorry for the late reply here. I agree with much of what lakeman has already responded on this and would like to add some of my own thoughts.

The word “worship” could mean a number of different things. Many people worship in different ways. I think the basis of worship is that the “soul” accepts God and His plan. Following what God gives to us to the best of our ability is the basic form of worship and in doing so we are accepting God; even if we only follow our conscience, which I believe God did give to us as a basic “guide”, and do not become part of a religious group.

So, to me, it is really our own choice and God does not exclude anyone that sincerely tries to follow Him.

Quote:

How does subservience to religion make one good man superior to another good man even if they conducted their lives exactly the same in all other respects?

Being subservient to religion does not make one person superior to another; the difference I think is that religion can help someone to become a better person in a few ways. One of these is that as a group you can receive strength from others. Another aspect is that religion can provide more truths about God that can be confirmed by our conscience. I believe that one of the purposes of this life is to gain as much knowledge about God and His plan as we can, since it will help us to follow Him better and religion can assist us in doing that.

Quote:

If worshiping God is what makes two identically good men different how does God explain His desire for worship just for its own sake?

Again, I think it comes down to our own acceptance of God and what is considered “worship”. If someone does not accept God and that is his/her choice, all God is doing is reciprocating their choice. Also, I think one can go through the motions of “worship” within a religion and not really accept God. There are those who do it for acceptance of other people.

Quote:

Actually the understanding of morality, or conduct based on right and wrong is not dependent on a concept of God. Again the assertion is that the ability to be good is stripped away by God. The only way to being moral is through Him, as if morality cant exist independent of those who worship God.

You are right about the understanding of morality, although if one believes in God it would make sense that God created the morality within us.

I think the ability to be good is always there in everyone, people just make their own choices.

caffeine

You accuse Mr. Spong of setting up a strawman argument, and then quickly twist his words into a strawman of your own. The paragraph from johnlocke's signature clearly does not say that nothing in the Bible can be literally true. All it says is that not everything in the Bible can be literally true. These are two very different claims.

lakeman

If it were not a rhetorical statement then it would say exactly what I argued against.

But it was a rhetorical statement. And I stand by what I said that it was meant to convey the message that only a person who has not read the bible could think it was literal.

I also have the advantage of having read his other works on the internet. No he does not actually believe that anyone takes it completely literally. But he says so both rhetorically and in implication to make a false case.

I apologize for not being more clear that I do not think he believes the very arguments he makes. Which is why I said "at worst he is making an intentionally wrong statement..."

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-