Sparta

Which is why you attended bible study in your youth.

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lakeman

You are already more advanced than Bishop Spong. You are thinking. You know that some of that is metaphor while it is intended to make a real point.

Context is very important. Paul's letters were written to real people who were experiencing real problems. We only have one side of the "conversation" but what we have surmised is that the Corinthian (greek) women were not used to participating in Jewish customs. A custom isn't necessarily a matter of ethics, it is just the way things are done so that there is some order. The Jewish custom was for the men to sit on one side of the service and for the women to sit on the other side. This isn't right or wrong and it isn't the way most of us do it today, except for Amish (?). After the service the husband and wife could talk about what was said. In Corinth the women were standing up in the middle of the service and yelling out questions to their husbands on the other side of the room. "Hey Joe, did you hear that? The pastor just said you should love me sacrificially. Why didn't you take out the garbage last night!" The women should sit still and not yell out questions during the service.

In Christ we all are equal. We do still have different roles. Women bear children and men do not as a biological example. If we agree that there are some other roles and we want to set up this kind of custom then there is nothing wrong with that. For some the man works outside the home while the women works inside the home. For some they both work outside the home and inside the home. For some the women works outside the home and the man works inside the home. None is more ethical these are just customs. The problems arise when some people get so use to the custom that they cannot tolerate anything else and they confuse it with ethics.


In many bibles that passage that came from in 1 cor is labeled "orderly worship." Just a couple of sentences above Paul is admonishing people to speak one at a time and not all at once. Are we going to say that this is a matter of ethics or that it just makes for a more orderly service?

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

lakeman

That is a problem all over the place.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

lakeman

You could try reading a more modern text one that is not so closely tied to Olde English.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

Sparta

The orderly service explination would make more sense if it did not specifically target women as subordinate. I understand we have an issue of customs whereby women were in fact subordinate, but Paul's message is supposed to be specifically influenced by an infallible Jesus Christ, and so it would stand to reason that either women are subordinate to men in the here and now, or Paul changed the message to suit his own ends.

Think for myself

I agree completely.

What I don't understand is why you have Christians like Parsley (Christian for him is a term I am using very loosely) interpreting things one way and other Christian leaders interpreting them another. There is no general consensus in the least.

Ignore lists are for those that are wrong, know they are wrong, and prefer to keep being wrong without the nuisance of being told they are wrong.

lakeman

Everyone is intended to submit at times. (btw, don't confuse subordinate with submission. Subordinate means that relative worth while submission means a giving up of ones own will in favor of anothers). Are you married? Do you ever do something for your wife just because she asked you to?

The bible tells everyone to submit to God. It tells all to submit to each other; men to submit to their wives and wives to husbands.

There is no question that we will submit. The question is when and why. We are told to submit to the government except when it contradicts God. IN the 1 cor example the submission seems to be for the purpose of creating order. I suggest that we should submit to one another in love for the purpose of building each other up and advancing God's plan. But always the submission is voluntary.


This assumption that we all submit even goes so far as to support the notions that we are all slaves. We will be a slave to someone. It might be God and it might be sin. The person who rejects God plan for his life and reject the joys and pleasures that God has in mind for him will instead choose to make choices only for what he thinks is his own plan for pleasure. He is a slave to hedonism and his choices are just as predetermined as if he were a slave. God expects right living but he does not force it. You have the choice to accept God's way or not. And his yoke is light and leads to life. The yoke of sin is a heavy burden and leads to death.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

lakeman

Being a televangelist almost by itself defines him a part of the fringe element. Though since I have never before heard of him I might be wrong.

Throughout the ages Christians have created various statements of faith and catechisms and creeds.

Here is the Nicene creed:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.


Here is the Apostles Creed:

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.




Here is part of the EFCA statement of faith:



4. We believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, fully God and fully man, one Person in two natures. Jesus—Israel's promised Messiah—was conceived through the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived a sinless life, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father as our High Priest and Advocate.



Here is a link to a whole page of creeds, etc.
Creeds of Christendom



I think you will find there is more consesus than divergence. Which is not to say what you and I have already agreed: that people chose to believe what benefits them most.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

lakeman

Now since we are discussing why people believe what they do...

The first thing to do is to separate and understand the difference between what the author intended and what we ourselves believe. To know what the author intended is almost entirely based on clues in the writing.

Next ask if what the author intended squares with what we believe. If not why not?

Some of this is a result of an anti-supernatural bias. Disbelieving something solely because it requires a belief in the supernatural. The supernatural is rare and unique and almost never observed. To date scientists have not come out and said that they have ever observed it. Of course they have not observed most of the universe. And any observations that do support the idea of miracles are written off. Many people go so far as to support the assumption that only things that are natural could ever exist. But this is only as supported as the limited number of observations that have been made.
The Nature and Philosophy of Science


When we take the very few miracles that have ever happened and put them into one book it appears that the authors think they are normal and common and since we know that is not true we doubt the authors. But that is not what the authors say. They record that they are just as surprised as you and I would be upon witnessing a miracle.

Put aside a supernatural bias and you just might find that you can reconcile your beliefs and the bibles.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

blackbetty

So, are you saying no studying of the texts is required? No knowledge of the language the texts are written is required? No knowledge of the history or customs of the times? That your "Master" just magically gives you knowledge that others have to study and work for?

~Lordy, Lordy. Look at all the freaks.~