WhiteKong78

Ok I have been mostly absorbant about whatever history I read regarding humans and our relatively short period here on earth. From our Hunter gatherer days to the present Information Revolution we are going through now, there has been only cosmetic changes in the human landscape. As far as I can see humans as a whole are killing more, destroying more being less interested in the survival of the street, town, city, state or land they live. Factions of humans in the past went out in parties to kill and take over the land of others living there. Usually the men would fight and kill the other men and whomever came out on top got the land, women, and resources of that area. Today we (not you or I but we as a whole) do the same. Gangs in inner cities have spread like a virus resorting to caveman tactics over turf, women, drugs and money. Countries send a few soldiers and some bombs to do the same things with a little ethnic cleansing involved as well. Our system is such that the police who know what a gang member looks like based on clothing, tattoos and graffiti amongst other things can not arrest a guy or girl who is clearly a member. Vile dictators around the globe are allowed to do whatever they want to their people and we who know it's wrong, do nothing. Is it possible that we (society as a whole) have listened to the people who tell us to forgive and ignore such evil then give the ones who have no such value for life the gun to murder us?. Is it possible the Devil or evil force in this universe plays (us who value) life for fools by telling us that we must forgive such acts of inhumanity? Would such a just and kind God that I believe to be my creator allow the Evil forces to both egg me on toward hurting myself, my fellow man and earth as well as convincing me to forgive those who try to harm me? I have heard certain Christian passages which the Devil makes a deal with God to test the will, faith and love of (Job?) man. The Devil could not physically harm him but do all to break his spirit and turn him against god. I am far from turning against my creator but I feel that I have been allowed to be a punching bag if not groomed to be one from day one on this planet. My parents seem normal nice people and I have never been with out anything in my life except for the respect I feel an innocent person deserves. I grew up in a neighborhood wher there was not one decent kid to hang out with. Some of the others around me bad habits stuck with me into my early 20's and some I am still trying to let go. As I do what I feel is right and what is expected of me by society and God, It gets even harder. More people around me are trying to bring me back to where I was years ago. I have never been unfaithful but have been cheated on and I feel there has been some negative things in life I deserved.

To make my point and ask my question.. Why through all the hardships would I be told to forgive those who would wrong me and hurt me both physically and emotionally? Would not the Devil ask that of me to make his job easier? Would not the Devil ask that I be ignorant to his presence so I may continue to open myself to attack? Can one be close to God and hold a hatred for the puppetmaster that controls the evil in men around him? Is it against the true word of God to desire and seek punishment for those who rip our world apart? I believe when I die I will have the power to squash the Evil force that controls the people here to destroy that which is good. I am not affiliated with any religion but do believe we have a right to help those who desire and ask for it as I ask everyday for help from God.

[/SIGPIC] Sheep Need Guidance

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lakeman

Wow that is a different take on things from what I have heard before. I appreciate you ability to think deeply and am I correct in thinking that you are sincere in your questioning and not just hoping to find fault with God?

The way I see it forgiveness is a self-evident good. And like you everyone finds it to be challenging. On the other hand giving in to temptation is no challenge at all. Without forgivness there is not reconciliation. Hatreds never become friendships. Angers just spiral out of control in a never ending arms race.

I do not think the devil cares one bit about death and war unless they are a means to divert the due glory from God to himself. God's master plan to save all of us from sin is to offer us forgiveness. It seems to me more likely that the devil would prefer us to devalue forgiveness.

Evil is wrong. Rejecting evil is the goal for us. So yes it is best that we be aware of evil. But it is not our place to hate the devil and those who commit evil. God is just and we can be sure that no unrepentent sin will be left unconsequenced. Justice is the domain of God and not yours or mine to decide. So why not forgive? Because you are afraid of more hurt? I can think of no surer way to block more love than to reject forgiveness.

God is God and men are men. it is God's place to judge and ours to love. A life marked by love is more powerful than you can imagine. I believe that just a few people on earth have demonstrated what power great love can be and they have shaped the world. Imagine what would happen if even ten more men like those emerged. Imagine if each of us demonstrated just a tiny percent of what those men demonstrated. We can each be great but we must always remember that we are men and not gods.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

WhiteKong78

I agree for the most part but If there is a power or evil that guides man to harm others why should I forgive the perpetual harm that comes from that?. When a man rapes and murders a child I do not think that man should be let out into society with a liberal attitude assuming that one day he will be judged. If a man askes for forgiveness from god after commiting such a truly evil crime is it God's place to make that decision? Should not the victim have a say? I don't believe that forever in paradise is going to be handed out to those who at the end say "OK I was wrong for that raping and murder of the child please forgive me" Ultimately in Christian Theology those who ask for forgiveness are drawn to do so out of fear to avoid eternal punishment. As a society we have a duty to the innocent (Even if innocent is a relative term to describe those who did not deserve behavior that exceeds wrong they have done in their own life) to set standards of behavior that protect others. God is not here in physical form so we must do what we can to show that our compassion for the innocent outweighs our ability to forgive those who commit evil. I am all for letting God do the job of directing souls north or south after death but here on earth the Devil seems to be winning and those few who do want a just society must usher those bad apples to their cages. I feel that it is natural to look at a child molester or serial rapist and not forgive him. Even if one understands that there may be some loose screws in the psychology of some, the compassion for the victims makes it impossible to condone or excuse the behavior. To not forgive the Devil is to prove ones undying devotion to God and those who do good onto others. If someone accidentally steps on my foot or insults me then forgiveness is warranted. If a man who is addicted to heroin breaks into my house to steal from me I would want him to get help then I could forgive him. Those who prey on others as a means to satisfy their own evil appetite should never be allowed forgiveness so easilly.

[/SIGPIC] Sheep Need Guidance

lakeman

Clearly you have a sense of justice and this is instilled in you by God to help you and to motivate you to help others. But it is not our place as individuals to judge (discernment yes, evaluation yes, judgmentalism no). God judges both in the hereafter and now. And we have institutions that are responsible for being the hand of God in that judgement. But holding onto the hate, which is not the same as wanting justice, will only tear you up and hurt you. Hate the sin not the sinner. It is true that we cannot let people continue to hurt and damage society but let us leave that to God and the courts. And do not worry that people will "trick" God into letting them avoid punishment because they have asked for forgiveness. If their only motive is to avoid punishment then the insincerity of their act will be known by God. Forgiveness requires faith which is a re-establishement of the trust that once existed between man and God. When we trust God we are motivated to do right. When we trust God we repent and change our ways. When we trust God we are sincere and then a second chance makes sense.

Do you trust that God has a plan for your life? Do you trust that He loves you and wants what is best for you? Do you trust that even unpleasant experiences in your life may be for your own good and the greater good of others? Do you trust that He asks you to do what is best? He asks you to be a loving and forgiving person. Is God wrong in asking this of you? Could it be that the ripples from the love you show others will be a pinch of salt that makes the whole bread better? That the love and forgiveness to others that God wants from you is the strongest act you can do to make the world a better place? That individual love is stronger than individual judgement? That it is God Himself who has placed the governments and courts and police and judges into position to do what you have not been called to do? Unless of course you have been called to be a ruler or judge or police officer or judge.

Whatever your calling be loving and strong and healthy and follow your doctors advise and use your God-given mind.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest.
-James Madison-

melchizedek22

Only God is good,its saved or unsaved

Feslin

Right! We MUST start arresting people based on how they dress!

It's not our job.

I'm honestly thinking about heading a study into the correlation between advocacy of socialism and poor reading comprehension skills.

America is no longer America. The principles present at our founding are ghosts now.

America is an idea, one that this country is failing to live up to.

WhiteKong78

#1 Yes if a group of guys or girls is wearing all one color has rags covering their faces and hanging out of their pockets and has a bunch of gang tats and branding. Why not? Oh never mind I forgot what site this is.

#2 It is our jobs to ensure and protect our childrens survival. Even if you have no children it is still your responsibility. Bye

[/SIGPIC] Sheep Need Guidance

WhiteKong78

I think the Bible is a tool to get us to be obedient. The god I believe in wants me to be self reliant and intelligent not some tool to a religion. Man writes laws to enslave other men. Most Laws are just and make sense but then there are some that are meant to seperate that which a man has earned justly. I don't want to be part of someone elses plan. I want to steer my own way in life. I'm a decent enough person to deserve it. Money has in god we trust on it but all that comes from money is bondage and slavery. Only the corrupt have more than enough money to break free of the chains.

[/SIGPIC] Sheep Need Guidance

Feslin

Because you can't prove they've harmed anyone.

By taking care of every dictator there is?

That causes more harm than help.

Why?

I'm honestly thinking about heading a study into the correlation between advocacy of socialism and poor reading comprehension skills.

America is no longer America. The principles present at our founding are ghosts now.

America is an idea, one that this country is failing to live up to.

Desidude666

Firstly, there are a couple of issues you should consider - the Devil does not exist. Secondly, in nature, there is no distinction between good and evil, every thing that exists is supposed to exist and is 'right'. Finally, when you talk about punishment, revenge, retribution or whatever, you are talking about your own perspective. If you state your perspective, how can it be generally judged 'good' or 'evil'? At micro-level, your choices are your personal affairs, hence the notion of 'good' or 'evil' shouldn't exist. The general population would not even know if you've done anything - how will it be judged? Should you look to respond to a physical aggravation, are you 'evil'? Or are you 'good'? You are none (despite our usual analysis of the circumstance), because at this level, a single organism in nature is not worth the classification - that said, your personal state or perspective does not make the difference to the general understanding of what is 'good' or what is 'evil'. Good and evil are definitions made by the religious and the legal system to address and acheive the desired results (not behaviour) in a social sphere. Technically, your question is less than enlightening because it does not consider the aspect of what is 'good' and what's not.

And on the question of 'Good' Vs. 'Evil'... depending on where you are to lose the most, if our costs on one end is a lot more than the other, that's 'evil'.

What you are, you are by accident of birth; what I am, I am by myself. There are and will be a thousand princes; there is only one Beethoven. - Ludwig van Beethoven