Contemplations on Belief

OrdinaryGuy · 06-19-2008, 06:53 PM

I have had some contemplations on belief and here are some of my ideas, feel free to disagree and engage in a healthy debate:

People believe something and are sometimes inspired to act. Hopefully if they do act, it will be for the benefit of others, though it is possible they can bring harm through their actions. Belief seperates and judges but reality is all things are inter-connected and dependent. Belief also tends to be resistent to change in the face of change. This is the nature of belief. Things change always and if things always change then belief is only as good as the ability and willingness to give it up.

Any thoughts? Disagreements?

Latherty · 06-19-2008, 07:08 PM

You on dope?

To believe without evidence is faith. it is neither moral or immoral by itself, it is merely a state.
To believe despite contrary or conflicting evidence is dumb and potentially dangerous

To do nice things is nice. Does anyone really need another reason?

OrdinaryGuy · 06-19-2008, 08:37 PM

I suppose we all have thoughts about one thing or another ... it's sort of like chewing gum: How can you stop?

When it comes to belief, sometimes there are some hard truths that need to be considered. Separation is certainly one of them.

But for those of us who have a spiritual practice, holding to hard truths would just be another set of beliefs and as such not such a good idea. Beliefs, on the plus side, get us all off the dime and into action. They are not to be scoffed at -- not least because of the amount of blood they shed. But to the extent they encourage a good investigation and a good practice, who could fault them. They are very useful -- like a hammer ... but who in his right mind would wander around holding a hammer all the time?

We use a hammer when we need one. After that, well, a hammer hand might be better employed hoisting a beer, don't you think?

We own them, they don't own us. It's our responsibility to use or not as we choose. It may take balls, but it's worth the courage.

Inkslinger · 06-21-2008, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy

I suppose we all have thoughts about one thing or another ... it's sort of like chewing gum: How can you stop?

When it comes to belief, sometimes there are some hard truths that need to be considered. Separation is certainly one of them.

But for those of us who have a spiritual practice, holding to hard truths would just be another set of beliefs and as such not such a good idea. Beliefs, on the plus side, get us all off the dime and into action. They are not to be scoffed at -- not least because of the amount of blood they shed. But to the extent they encourage a good investigation and a good practice, who could fault them. They are very useful -- like a hammer ... but who in his right mind would wander around holding a hammer all the time?

We use a hammer when we need one. After that, well, a hammer hand might be better employed hoisting a beer, don't you think?

We own them, they don't own us. It's our responsibility to use or not as we choose. It may take balls, but it's worth the courage.

Pass me a hit of that shit......

lakeman · 07-09-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latherty

To believe without evidence is faith. it is neither moral or immoral by itself, it is merely a state.

Or faith is the belief in the evidence of things unseen. In otherwords there is evidence is just not objective.

Quote:

To believe despite contrary or conflicting evidence is dumb and potentially dangerous

Were it only that simple. In reality every belief no matter how sound has at least some evidence that conflicts with it. Is light a wave or a particle? It wasn't until both sides provided evidence that could not be refuted that science had to accept that it was both - despite the fact that this is a paradox. The best we can do is find the belief that is supported best by the evidence however imperfectly. Though for the most part to believe something that is conflicted too greatly is dumb.

Quote:

To do nice things is nice. Does anyone really need another reason?

You don't need another reason but nevertheless there are other reasons too.

lakeman · 07-09-2008, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy

I have had some contemplations on belief and here are some of my ideas, feel free to disagree and engage in a healthy debate:

People believe something and are sometimes inspired to act. Hopefully if they do act, it will be for the benefit of others, though it is possible they can bring harm through their actions. Belief seperates and judges but reality is all things are inter-connected and dependent. Belief also tends to be resistent to change in the face of change. This is the nature of belief. Things change always and if things always change then belief is only as good as the ability and willingness to give it up.

Any thoughts? Disagreements?

Well I certainly hope that people are willing to change their beliefs in the face of a set of compelling evidence to the contrary; to alter their beliefs to fit a new set and to find the best fit.

I for one would abandon Christianity should the body of Christ be found, as one example. Previously I gave up atheism in the face of another set of evidence.

lakeman · 07-09-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy

I suppose we all have thoughts about one thing or another ... it's sort of like chewing gum: How can you stop?

When it comes to belief, sometimes there are some hard truths that need to be considered. Separation is certainly one of them.

But for those of us who have a spiritual practice, holding to hard truths would just be another set of beliefs and as such not such a good idea. Beliefs, on the plus side, get us all off the dime and into action. They are not to be scoffed at -- not least because of the amount of blood they shed. But to the extent they encourage a good investigation and a good practice, who could fault them. They are very useful -- like a hammer ... but who in his right mind would wander around holding a hammer all the time?

We use a hammer when we need one. After that, well, a hammer hand might be better employed hoisting a beer, don't you think?

We own them, they don't own us. It's our responsibility to use or not as we choose. It may take balls, but it's worth the courage.

A hammer might be one analogy. A finger might be another. And I would want to walk around with one of those all the time.

But I do recognize your point and agree that a hammer or a finger can be used for both good and evil and it doesn't make the finger any more or less responsible. OK the metaphor is breaking down...ideas can be at fault for what they inspire but that does not mean that they are always at fault. They can be abused too.

OrdinaryGuy · 07-12-2008, 01:36 PM

These are things for me to contemplate further on lakeman. I appreciate your response and ideas. However, is belief really something extra that we choose to pick up? Or is it something that has always been apart of who we are? Or is belief something that we have picked ever since we were born, carried with us for all of our lives, but is still, nevertheless, something extra which can be given up? Or is it a little bit of both? Interesting post and thank you for the insights. I also appreciate the responses from those who disagree with me and think I am high on something ha ha ha ha! Those who disagree with you can be your best teachers.

lakeman · 07-14-2008, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrdinaryGuy

These are things for me to contemplate further on lakeman. I appreciate your response and ideas. However, is belief really something extra that we choose to pick up? Or is it something that has always been apart of who we are? Or is belief something that we have picked ever since we were born, carried with us for all of our lives, but is still, nevertheless, something extra which can be given up? Or is it a little bit of both? Interesting post and thank you for the insights. I also appreciate the responses from those who disagree with me and think I am high on something ha ha ha ha! Those who disagree with you can be your best teachers.

Well my thinking is that it is both.

We know that we are born with a brain that has some things hardwired - like instincts. And we also know that we learn some things.

On a different level the bible says that everyone knows that God exists - that this knowlege has been placed in our hearts along with some other knowledge. Yet we still learn more from our experiences. Even Jesus learned as he grew.

splansing · 07-15-2008, 01:04 PM

Light is a wave and a particle. That is a paradox? Well, probably not. Another way of saying that the nature of light itself is a paradox is that the fundamental nature of the universe itself doesn't make any sense and, in fact, contradicts itself. And that strikes me as nonsense.

What I find very easy to accept is that human understanding of this universe is incredibly primitive, and our inability to reconcile the different ways that light behaves in different circumstances has nothing to do with any built-in contradiction in the very nature of light itself, and everything to do with the fact that we don't know very much.

It is rational to accept that as a working hypothesis, which lakeman regularly mislabels as a "belief".

In fact, there are a great many things which are rational to accept as working hypotheses, which lakeman characterizes as "beliefs" in order to make his religious beliefs seem comparable, when they most definitely are not.