The Events that led to 9/11! - Page 2

Sparta · 10-05-2007, 02:32 PM

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Originally Posted by deedee

like i give a damn about international courts

Thanks for letting me know I don't have to waste my time tearing apart your waste of time.

operator kos · 10-05-2007, 02:33 PM

The biggest defenders of Israel in the U.S. are Christian Zionists and a handful of right wing Jews. I'd wager that most liberal Jews are disgusted by Israel's war crimes, and on the other side there are Orthodox Jews who firmly believe that Israel should not exist. I can certainly understand a long-persecuted minority wanting a homeland of its own, but that sentiment is today being exploited by the bigoted leaders of Israel and U.S. interests which cynically use the state as a proxy or else have some sort of weird messianic fantasy about the region.

Conservative15 · 10-05-2007, 06:59 PM

This is just a blame America thread.

Inkslinger · 10-05-2007, 07:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Conservative15

This is just a blame America thread.

Looky, another sentence!

deedee · 10-06-2007, 11:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Sparta

These must be the "US" sanctions to which you refer?
UN Security Council Resolution 661 UN Security Council Resolution 661 -1990

Source: Iraq Sanctions Case

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I. IDENTIFICATION 1. The Issue In 1990, Iraq invaded Kuwait because of disputes Iraq had with Kuwait: Iraq claimed that Kuwait had extracted oil from a pool beneath the Iraq-Kuwait border that belonged to Iraq; Iraq contended that Kuwait purposefully saturated the petrol market with large supplies of oil, therefore, keeping oil's spot market price low (low oil prices, rendered Iraq unable to pay the massive debt it had accrued during the Iran-Iraq War); Iraq alleged that the borders drawn for it by the United Kingdom, after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, unjustly shorted it of territorial seas. After invading Kuwait, sanctions were placed on Iraq; in 1996, sanctions on Iraq are still in place. In the meantime, sanctions have caused Iraq's poor to suffer immeasurably and Iraq's ecology to suffer deleteriously.

Source: SANCTIONS

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This paper concludes that, because it targets civilians, the blockade/sanctions regime was illegal from its inception under the Geneva Protocol. It also concludes that the proved effects of the blockade/sanctions regime on the civilian population are such that it is now manifestly criminal both as a war crime and as a breach of the Genocide Convention. The final conclusion drawn is that, by application of the Nuremberg Principles, all individual persons knowingly assisting with the enforcement of the blockade/sanctions regime are guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

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The gravity of these findings is fully appreciated. Also fully appreciated is the extent to which these findings run contrary to received wisdom that the UN does not act contrary to the law. However, as former Attorney General of the United States of America Ramsey Clark stated in a letter calling for an end to the sanctions addressed to the members of the UNSC on 26 January 2000:- �[The number of deaths caused by the sanctions] must shock the conscience of every sentient human being.�

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It is important to note the context within which the blockade/sanctions regime was installed. A UN investigative team headed by Partti Ahtisaari went to Iraq in March 1991 to report on the post-war situation. The team reported to the UN that: �The recent conflict has wrought near�apocalyptic results upon the economic infrastructure of what had been, until January 1991, a rather highly urbanised and mechanised society. Now, most means of modern life support have been destroyed or rendered tenuous. Iraq has, for some time to come, been relegated to a pre-industrial age, but with all the disabilities of post-industrial dependency on an intensive use of energy and technology.�

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The same report also noted that Iraq had formerly imported 70% of its food needs, but now imports were blocked and food prices were already rising beyond the purchasing reach of most Iraqi families. The report further noted that widespread starvation conditions were a real possibility and that sewerage and sanitation systems had collapsed.

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Various resolutions have been passed since 1991 with the ostensible purpose of mitigating the effects of the blockade/sanctions regime. In particular the�Oil for food� resolutions (including principally SCR 986 of 1995) have been put in place to enable the sale of a limited amount of oil in order to purchase foodstuffs and medical supplies. However, the ineffectiveness of this programme to supply even the most urgent humanitarian needs of the Iraqi people is notorious. In a report dated January 1999 to the UNSC written by a panel established for the purpose of assessing the humanitarian situation by the President of the UN Security Council (�the Panel report�), it was noted at paras 46-47 that: �[e]ven if all humanitarian supplies were provided in a timely manner, the humanitarian programme implemented pursuant to resolution 986 (1995) can admittedly only meet but a small fraction of the priority needs of the Iraqi people.

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Infant Malnutrition and Mortality
32.A news update issued by the UN World Food Programme (WFP) noted on 26 September 1995 that 2.4 million Iraqi children under five were at severe nutritional risk.
33.In December 1995, the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) noted that:
�As many as 12% of the children surveyed in Baghdad are wasted, 28% stunted and 29% under weight.�
34.In December 1995, FAO reported that 567,000 Iraqi children had died as a direct consequence of economic sanctions.
35.In March 1996, WHO reported that the economic sanctions had caused a six fold increase in the mortality rate of Iraqi children under five.
36.UNICEF reported in October 1996 that 4,500 Iraqi children under five were dying every month as a result of sanctions � induced starvation and disease.
37.The Panel Report of January 1999 notes: (para 18) that under 5 child mortality rate increased from 30.2/1,000 live births to 97.2/1,000 from 1989 to 1997 and that low birth weight babies rose from 4% in 1990 to approximately 25% in 1997, due mainly to maternal malnutrition; (para 19) that the prevalence of malnutrition in Iraqi children under 5 almost doubled from 1991 to 1996 and that, as at April 1997, almost the whole young child population was affected by a shift in the nutritional status towards malnutrition; (para 19) that the Iraqi infant mortality rates are among the highest in the world, in marked contrast to the situation prior to the Gulf War.

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Access to Medical Treatment
38.In his 1995 report on the work of the United Nations, UN Secretary General Boutros Boutros-Ghali stated:
�Health conditions have continued to deteriorated throughout the country because of shortages of essential drugs and medical supplies. The situation is further aggravated by the inadequate supply of potable water and poor sanitation facilities, as essential equipment and spare parts are lacking to rehabilitate the water, sewerage, and electricity supply systems �.. children are increasingly dying of ailments linked to malnutrition and lack of adequate medical care.�

deedee · 10-06-2007, 12:00 PM

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Originally Posted by Sparta

Due to the length of your post, I'd like to deal with one thing at a time.

This is nothing more than an attempt to build your future argument around emotion, the fact is that there exists no legal definition of Terrorism that has been accepted by international courts. The very premis of your argument is false.

In that case, why is OBL labeled as one?

deedee · 10-06-2007, 12:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Conservative15

This is just a blame America thread.

Wrong. This is a blame the U.S. government thread.

johnlocke · 10-06-2007, 12:07 PM

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Originally Posted by deedee

According to many politicians and people Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist, but in a war, there is no such thing as a terrorist. You will probably ask yourself now:' But what war? There wasn't a war going on before the 9/11 attack,' well that might not be true. According to history there was a war but it was covered up by media and the press. American government is responsible for that day, not by doing it themselves like some people claim, but by lying to their people, and deceiving from them what was really going on. Here are the facts and prove me wrong if I am:

More than 600,000 Iraqi children have died due to lack of food and medicine and as a result of the unjustifiable aggression (U.S. sanctions) imposed on Iraq and its nation. (This is back from 1996, imagine what the number is now)

The Americans are continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, still they are helpless.

Despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the American - Jewish alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, in excess of 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

The aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

The British handed over Palestine, with American help and American support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and America is the leader of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime.

Some of you will probably claim that Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. With that said it is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

Americans attacked Muslims in Somalia; they supported the Russian atrocities against Muslims in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against Muslims in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against Muslims in Lebanon.

Americans steal their wealth and oil at paltry prices because of their international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

American forces occupy Muslim countries; they spread their military bases throughout them; they corrupt their lands, and they besiege their sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of American pillage of their treasures.

American government has starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of American sanctions, and America did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of American people died, the entire world rose and has not yet sat down.

American government has supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move their embassy there.

These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of American governments oppression and aggression against the people of the Middle East.

You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack penetrate lands of the Middle East. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against the Muslims in the Middle East.

The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack them.

This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against them.

American government used their force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure their interests and profits. The government who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have they carried out? So much for 'freedom.'

However, history will not forget the war crimes that the American government committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those they have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that they will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind them of their latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. They are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of their prisoners through suffocation and thirst. God alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of them and their agents. Their planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into their faces.

All these crimes committed by the Americans were and are a clear declaration of war.

So yes, a war was going on before 9/11 and after that day it has only worsened. In other words, it has gone public. If the American government wanted to 'free' Iraq and it's people then why are millions of them in graves and why are they taking it's riches away from it's people. It is clear that this war has nothing to do with democracy, Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden. This war is a deception to divert from the Jewish occupation of Palestine, and to rob the Iraqi people of all of their natural resources. To weaken the Middle East and get them to accept Israel as a state.

Nice try but wrong. If you actually READ what OBL and Al Queda said about the attack on 9/11, it was about the US presence in Saudi Arabia. Iraq and Palestine were merely thrown in to make it palatable to the rest of the Muslim world.

More to the point, your argument smacks of "blame America first." While the US operated in its own interests, that is neither unnatural for a nation-state nor is it unusual. The causes of 9/11 are complex and don't boil down to "America is evil."

deedee · 10-06-2007, 12:08 PM

You might also want to watch this youtube video:

YouTube - Iraq Genocide by Sanction

So much for a government of freedom and peace!

johnlocke · 10-06-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparta

Due to the length of your post, I'd like to deal with one thing at a time.

This is nothing more than an attempt to build your future argument around emotion, the fact is that there exists no legal definition of Terrorism that has been accepted by international courts. The very premis of your argument is false.

In fact OBL MUST be a terrorist. He is not a leader of a nation-state, has no organized (uniformed) military or militia, and his followers routinely attack non-military objectives with the specific intent of effecting political change using fear and intimidation.