Thread: EU steps up pressure on Ireland to hold second Lisbon Treaty referendum

EU steps up pressure on Ireland to hold second Lisbon Treaty referendum

Forget what the voters want, just shove it down their throats, NOW!

Originally Posted by michaelr

EU steps up pressure on Ireland to hold second Lisbon Treaty referendum

Forget what the voters want, just shove it down their throats, NOW!

It will be very little discussed at the summit, now, as the whole thing is going to be dominated by the economic situation (France and Germany want to suspend budgetary constraints for bank bailouts; which the Czechs and Scandinavians will strongly oppose - and the Czechs are probably going to accuse the Eurozone countries of breaking laws against state aid) and to a lesser extent by the climate change package, which Sarkozy appears to still foolishly believe can be passed before next year.

It's also important to remember that, whilst Irish voters voted the same way you would have (by a not particularly big margin) this does not mean they agree with your theories about the nature of the European Union. 63% of those who voted No to Lisbon said they thought the EU was good thing overall.

Why did they vote against it? That's part of what the Irish government is supposed to have been finding out in the past few months, and one of the top reasons given in surveys was fears over Irish neutrality - with a staggering 38% answering that they believed the Lisbon treaty would allow them to be conscripted into a European army. Giving them an opt-out on defence and security cooperation and then asking if that's okay doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.

The other idea hinted at in the article seems even better. The big thing we learnt from the Irish referendum is that the majority of voters were not sure what they were voting on - the treaty was too impenetrable for anyone but a legal scholar. Picking out the specific constitutional changes which require a referendum to pass and asking each individually ('Do you agree with reducing the size of the European Commission?'; 'Do you agree with abolishing the veto in Justice and Home Affairs?') would allow us to actually find out what the Irish think.

Irish Threatened with “Disastrous Consequences” Over Rejection of Lisbon Treaty

You just got to love it when the NWO gets pissed, they show their true colors.

The Fabian Society, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Royal Institute of International Affairs, the Bilderberg Group, and the Trilateral Commission “have worked, in effect, to blend Nazi pan-Europeanism with Communist Internationalism to create the global, oligarchic, corporate system,” explains Wolf.

Originally Posted by michaelr

Irish Threatened with “Disastrous Consequences” Over Rejection of Lisbon Treaty

You just got to love it when the NWO gets pissed, they show their true colors.

This article is filled with lies, distortions and misunderstandings. He writes:

"Specifically, Ireland faces sanctions, including the prospect of renouncing its EU commissioner."

This isn't true. What the article he's quoting from claims (as an unsourced assertion) is that some people in the European Commission are calling for sanctions on Ireland. If this is true, and I don't know if it is, it is a very different state of affairs from actually facing the sanctions. Certain officials may call in private for all manner of things which stand no chance of seeing the light of day.

Also, if we look at the only case I know of when diplomatic sanctions were imposed on an EU member-state (Austria), they didn't lose their commissioner. They just didn't get to pose for photos or attend high-level summits; the policy work done by Austrian representatives was unaffected. I don't know if the Council has any authority to suspend Ireland's commissioner, but it seems ridiculously far-fetched that they would do so just because the Irish obeyed their own constitution.

Funnily enough - Ireland would probably lose their commissioner if they did ratify the Lisbon treaty - that was one of the common reasons expressed by No voters.

"If the British people are allowed a referendum on the issue, they will likely go the way of the Irish, as the Irish went to the way of the French and Dutch before them — when put to a vote, the EU is roundly rejected by most Europeans."

Not true. Opinion polls show that the majority of Dutch, French and Irish voters are in favour of the EU (though I think it's different in the UK). As I remarked above, 63% of No voters in Ireland said they considered the EU a good thing overall (against 70% of the population as a whole). The Dutch have always been a traditionally pro-European nation. None of the recent referendums were on the question 'Do you like the EU?' or 'Should you be in the EU?' and I'm sick of Eurosceptics pretending every No vote is an enthusiastic endorsement of their particular brand of anti-Union thinking. People voted no for many different reasons. Consider the two following statements:

"By voting No, Ireland has voted decisively against Europe." - This is speculative interpretation of the result
"Most Irish people are in favour of the EU." - This is empirical fact verified repeatedly in opinion polling.

Why, then, is the first statement the one we hear most often?

More when I finish work.

Edit: I take it back - there won't be more. The rest of the article shies away from specifically refutable facts and just ventures into vague lists of all the institutions involved in setting up a Nazi Europe - much like michael's above quote.

I promised there'd be more, so here's a little bit more. I found the Eurobarometer flash poll carried out immediately after the referendum in which, according to michael and infowars, the Irish people categorically rejected Europe. It's available here. There are just a couple of salient facts I thought needed to be pointed out:

When asked their reasons for voting no, the most popular response, offered by 22% of respondents, was that they didn't know enough about the treaty to vote yes. Opposition to a unified Europe was a reason proffered by just 5% of no voters.

Tellingly, the poll asked 'Do you generally support or oppose Ireland's membership of the European Union?' The following respondents answered 'Support':

96% of Yes voters
86% of those who didn't vote
80% of No voters

Ireland has benefitted substantially from membership in the European Union, and as a result the vast majority of the population are in favour of membership. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a barefaced liar or ignorant on the subject.

Sorry to triple post, but I almost forgot one last point to finally put to bed this oft repeated lie that "when put to a vote, the EU is roundly rejected by most Europeans." Often, when you hear such claims discussed in the context of the European Constitution, you get the impression that only two referendums were held on the Constitution - the French and Dutch No votes. This isn't true - there were four referendums held before ratification was abandoned following the two Nos. Here's the other two results:

Spain

Yes: 75.73%
No: 17.24%

Luxembourg:

Yes: 56.52%
No: 43.48%