Thread: Russia must punish states hosting U.S. missile shield

It's going to get ugly now.
And the Czech republic and Poland are going to lose daily from now on.....

Russia must punish states hosting U.S. missile shield - analyst

09/ 07/ 2008

MOSCOW, July 9 (RIA Novosti) - Russia must use economic and political means, and military ties with Asia, to punish European states that agree to host U.S. missile defense elements, a Russian political analyst said on Wednesday.
Commenting on a U.S.-Czech deal signed on Tuesday on deploying a missile tracking radar, Col. Gen. Leonid Ivashov, the head of the Moscow-based Academy of Geopolitical Sciences, said: "Russia should not limit itself to statements. We must have a plan, adopted by the Russian Security Council, setting out measures on the economic, political and military cooperation levels."
Moscow has strongly opposed the possible deployment by the U.S. of 10 interceptor missiles in Poland and an accompanying radar in the Czech Republic as a threat to its security and international nuclear deterrence. Washington says the defenses are needed to deter a possible strike from Iran.
The U.S.-Czech missile shield treaty has yet to be ratified by the Czech parliament and signed by the Czech president. The country's opposition is currently holding mass rallies around the country against the placement of an early warning radar near the capital, Prague.
Polish-American talks on Washington's plans to place a missile base in Poland have stalled. Poland's prime minister said last Friday that his country was not satisfied with the terms offered by the U.S., but was ready for further dialogue.
Ivashov, who headed the main directorate for military cooperation at the Russian Defense Ministry in 1996-2001, told RIA Novosti: "On the political level, we must suspend our cooperation with NATO, because it brings us nothing but harm."
As an alternative, he suggested that Russia start negotiations with China, India and other countries to form a global alliance against the U.S. missile shield in Europe.

"Russia must also warn the European countries that... in case of a potential military confrontation... capitals, large cities, and industrial and communications centers of the countries hosting elements of the U.S. missile shield will inevitably become primary targets of nuclear strikes," the general said.

"They should know that we are holding them in our sights," he added.

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I don't think the US and its European allies should play too much attention to Russia's rumblings regarding this potential missile shield. The plan will probably be modified slightly as such is diplomatically prudent; however ultimately it will go ahead in some form or another with the consent of NATO allies (allies who happen to be genuine liberal democracies worthy of cooperation and association with other comparable states) with the aim of undermining any Eastern (read Iranian, Russian or whatever) missile threat to NATO infrastructure and member states.

I think Russia has some justification for being hostile to the implementation of any anti-missile system in Europe, as its ability to project military power westwards and mount and effective "deterrence" against NATO is undermined. Such concerns are however for the most part examples of backward and misplaced Cold War reasoning, it is absolutely to absurd that the United States and its allies pose a clear and present threat to either Russian security or territorial integrity. Quite simply Eastern Europe is no longer Russia’s backyard, it is a region awash with new and emerging democracies that have either gained already or are clamoring for EU and NATO membership (save the curmudgeonly states of Belarus and Serbia, two historically slavophilic and Russian influenced societies). Regardless Russia's reaction to the plan is unsurprising considering the paranoid mindset of the Kremlin under Putin's ex-KGB clique, as well as the increasingly assertive attitude of Russia's political elites who are newly awash with petrodollars seeking to regain some of Russia’s Cold War glory.

Russia's government has continued an ancient political tradition found in its historically totalitarian governments Tsarist, Communist and "Democratic" alike - The consistent need to project domestic discontents against perceived foreign enemies, as well as the more recent addition bolstered by resurgent Russian nationalism - to insure the creation of a hostile, assertive and influential Russian state on the world stage. Governments like Medvedev's (read Putin's) can effectively project nationalist impulses abroad to avoid criticisms of domestic discontents like corruption, widening inequality, rising inflation and demographic woes - but only to a point. They will also find for the most part that their geo-political dreams can’t be matched by their country’s actual geo-political clout, in relative terms against the influence of both the United States and the rising European Union.

Undoubtedly Russia's totalitarian government's policies will be of significant interest in the foreseeable future.

I don't think Russia should stand idly by while Europe expands its military power closer and closer to its own borders. It must, in the spirit of self-defense, present a strong and clear opposition. Clearly the EU and NATO are doing everything in their power to try to force Russia into a submissive position, but this will only serve to bring us, once again, to the brink of war.

I don't think the US should have anything to do with NATO. There is no reason for us to be aiding European military efforts. We need to protect our own interests first. Europe is no longer a long term military ally of the United States. We've got to stop investing in their security.

Originally Posted by Burning Giraffe

I don't think Russia should stand idly by while Europe expands its military power closer and closer to its own borders. It must, in the spirit of self-defense, present a strong and clear opposition. Clearly the EU and NATO are doing everything in their power to try to force Russia into a submissive position, but this will only serve to bring us, once again, to the brink of war.

I don't think the US should have anything to do with NATO. There is no reason for us to be aiding European military efforts. We need to protect our own interests first. Europe is no longer a long term military ally of the United States. We've got to stop investing in their security.

Placing your view on NATO's continued relevance aside,

Your argument is based upon the assumptions that: Eastern Europe is Russia's backyard to serve as a "buffer" between Russia and the democratic alliance of the West, and that Western states pose a genuine security threat to Russia territorial or otherwise. These two assumptions are false and are incorrectly assumed by the paranoid ex-KGB foreign policy clique that currently dominates the Kremlin. I tend to believe that at the highest levels of power in Russia they have at least some grasp on geo-political reality and are merely projecting nationalistic impulses and an idealized Russian sphere of influence abroad.

Countries like Poland, the Czech Republic and others are now independent democratic states, EU and NATO members that have every right to engage in mutual defense with their neighbors. Russia's traditional imperial role in the region has been effectively been undermined and the country is going to have to accept this. Russia's concerns of territorial integrity and security in relation to the West would be justified if say for example: NATO patrols were flying over Russian airspace and instead of a missile shield in central Europe, the alliance proposed implementing a first strike vehicle in the Ukraine or something..... Only a paranoid and totalitarian regime could be fearful of democratic countries engaged in self-defense and cooperation 1,000 km from their border. After all when democratic countries cooperate the ability of nationalistic, totalitarian and paranoid regimes to project their poison abroad is undermined.

So our local Russian Comrade found a new site to spew Russian Propaganda. Hi Boris. Hows Natasha doing?

Some people are paid by our Russian friends to join forums and attack Americans.

Russia is turning in to a Nazi state And they use people like our friend Boris to spread their anti western views.

The Russians have had their freedom for a few short years and they are already turning right back in to a one party state. They don't understand freedom. The have learned to use all the devices and products that were developed in freedom. But here they are using it in the most predictable way for Russians. They have brought nothing to the modern world. And now seem to be bent on sticking their noses in everyone else's business.

Boris is a waste of space. And the Russians should be paying the owner of this forum for advertising.

Originally Posted by Colin

Placing your view on NATO's continued relevance aside,

Your argument is based upon the assumptions that: Eastern Europe is Russia's backyard to serve as a "buffer" between Russia and the democratic alliance of the West, and that Western states pose a genuine security threat to Russia territorial or otherwise. These two assumptions are false and are incorrectly assumed by the paranoid ex-KGB foreign policy clique that currently dominates the Kremlin. I tend to believe that at the highest levels of power in Russia they have at least some grasp on geo-political reality and are merely projecting nationalistic impulses and an idealized Russian sphere of influence abroad.

Countries like Poland, the Czech Republic and others are now independent democratic states, EU and NATO members that have every right to engage in mutual defense with their neighbors. Russia's traditional imperial role in the region has been effectively been undermined and the country is going to have to accept this. Russia's concerns of territorial integrity and security in relation to the West would be justified if say for example: NATO patrols were flying over Russian airspace and instead of a missile shield in central Europe, the alliance proposed implementing a first strike vehicle in the Ukraine or something..... Only a paranoid and totalitarian regime could be fearful of democratic countries engaged in self-defense and cooperation 1,000 km from their border. After all when democratic countries cooperate the ability of nationalistic, totalitarian and paranoid regimes to project their poison abroad is undermined.

I think this is a military exercise to show European support for the old Eastern-European Communist bloc and is intended to put "Europe" on Russia's front door step. Russia should feel threatened. There is a long history in Europe of trying to conquer Russia. Of course, they always fail, but now I think their strategy is to force Russia into Submission to NATO and as much as I hate Russia's government I certainly think the Russian people have every right to feel threatened by their European neighbors. If there have ever been two countries that should be in opposition to NATO today, its Russia and the United States.

I'm curious as to exactly what Russia could do to 'punish' the Czech Republic. Threatening to blow us up in a theoretical future war that's unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future doesn't scare me so much,

As has been pointed out ad nauseum, if the Russian government wants to turn Western Europe or North America into piles of smoking rubble, there's little anyone can do to stop them. Russia possesses thousands of strategic nuclear warheads, at least 2,000 of which are currently deployed. The technology to intercept that many missiles simply doesn't exist. Russian opposition to the missile defence shield stems from outdated rivalries and paranoia; bitterness over the size of power differentials nowadays and, most crucially, belligerent populism for domestic consumption.

Originally Posted by mikeyy

The Russians have had their freedom for a few short years and they are already turning right back in to a one party state. They don't understand freedom. The have learned to use all the devices and products that were developed in freedom. But here they are using it in the most predictable way for Russians. They have brought nothing to the modern world. And now seem to be bent on sticking their noses in everyone else's business.

Fun fact - out of all the peer-reviewed physics journals listed in the ISI Web of Knowledge for 1998-2002; authors based in Russia produced almost 10% of all articles.

Originally Posted by caffeine

I'm curious as to exactly what Russia could do to 'punish' the Czech Republic. Threatening to blow us up in a theoretical future war that's unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future doesn't scare me so much

Oil and gas.

Russia is building a gas pipeline through the Baltic sea that will link Russia and Belorus directly with Germany and France going around Poland. That fucks the Poles.
Russia is building a Caspian pipeline that would go through the Black sea, Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia and end up in western Europe. That goes around Czech republic and in turn fucks you, the Czechs.

These pipelines give Russia the power to shut off gas and oil to each european country individually; a country of their choosing.

They don't have to blow you up. They'll cut your energy supply.

Originally Posted by res

These pipelines give Russia the power to shut off gas and oil to each european country individually; a country of their choosing.

No - it just allows them to choose from which direction the oil and gas enters the common European market.

http://www.inogate.org/en/images/maps/gas_map_big.gif

If Russia chooses to shut off a country from the pipeline others must comply. It is not up to the "european market" it is up to the seller and buyer. It is a contract that is signed between two countries. There is no market.
Russia is the largest supplier gas and europe has become very much dependent on it.

I don't care about rocket shield since it's not much of threat to Russia.

I know that Russia can choose to shut you off from the pipeline individually because it threatened to do so to Ukraine and Serbia on seperate occasions.