Thread: Hypocrisy at its finest!

Originally Posted by Derogarlic

The Iraqi people are fighting the illegal american occupation. I'd say it's still the same war than in 2003, a war for control of Iraq.

The Iraqi people are absolutely not fighting the US military! Where are you comming up with this?? Iraq has a democratically elected government that is fighting and winning against the insurgents. The US military is aiding them in that endevour.

Originally Posted by johnflesh

...You are right, they aren't at war with the USA, it was never declared. But the war in Iraq is that none the less. You can call it how you see it, some might call it spinning, but the fact is we are at a time of war. WE ARE AT WAR....

We are at war with the terrorists that have invaded Iraq. We are training the Iraqi military and they have grown in number and ability. The Iraqi military now controls about 2/3 of the provinces. The USA is there at the request of the Iraqi government. You my friend, are the one trying to spin it.

Originally Posted by justoneman

The Iraqi people are absolutely not fighting the US military! Where are you comming up with this?? Iraq has a democratically elected government that is fighting and winning against the insurgents. The US military is aiding them in that endevour.

Seriously JOM, who is the insurgency? Just nothing but terrorists?

No, they consist of every type of person you can imagine, from Drs to ex-military, farmers to students, and then of course, those who descended upon Iraq from other nations, to fight the Americans, those who carry the heavy religious ideologue with them.

Its so not as black and white as you say. There is quite a bit of information on who the insurgency is, I'd suggest looking it up.

Originally Posted by justoneman

We are at war with the terrorists that have invaded Iraq. We are training the Iraqi military and they have grown in number and ability. The Iraqi military now controls about 2/3 of the provinces. The USA is there at the request of the Iraqi government. You my friend, are the one trying to spin it.

But there are elements in Iraq that are nationalists of Iraq, fighting Americans. Before 2003, they were common people. I don't agree they should be fighting us but if I was them, I'd be fighting anyone who invaded my country, Western country or terrorist alike.

I don't think you get a full understand of who is actually pulling triggers in Iraq.

Originally Posted by johnflesh

But there are elements in Iraq that are nationalists of Iraq, fighting Americans. Before 2003, they were common people. I don't agree they should be fighting us but if I was them, I'd be fighting anyone who invaded my country, Western country or terrorist alike.

I don't think you get a full understand of who is actually pulling triggers in Iraq.

The majority of Iraqi people do not want the US military to leave yet. The Iraq government requests our aid in their fight against the insurgents. We are the allie of Iraq.

Muqtada al-Sadr
Shia militia
Ba'athists
Nationalists
Sunni Islamists
Marxists
Foreign participants

These are some of the groups that have been known to fight it out with US troops and each other in a time of war in Iraq.

While things are going better JOM, that doesn't automatically change the fact this is a Global War on Terror. It has war right in the name bro, it did all the work for you.

Originally Posted by justoneman

The majority of Iraqi people do not want the US military to leave yet.

You are correct. I have read that myself. Still doesn't mean that it isn't a time of war, for us, for them. You did again leave something else out. To quote an Iraqi who'd fit in your 'majority' as:

We don't want the Americans to leave yet, but we resent the Americans and pity ourselves for having to rely on them.

So its not all cake and ice cream yet.

The Iraq government requests our aid in their fight against the insurgents. We are the allie of Iraq.

This is true, and while we are there we should do the best damn job that we are capable of doing. And from what I'm reading, we are doing a bang up job now. Well, a whole hell of a lot better than before. I hope we continue to help them, I mean we are there and all and we are capable. We owe them that much and glad we have the eggs to see it through.

But a war is a war. As unimportant as definition is at this moment. I guess I can sit with you on this fine Saturday and debate definition with you but I'd hope you'd agree that doing so would be a step back as its already been defined, no matter if it squares with you or not.

I truly believe that some believe really believe if the US just left Iraq everything would be fine. See no evil, hear no evil, and it vanishes. This reasoning also usually goes hand in hand with the comment that Israel is evil and the US should not be Israel's ally and its all Israel's fault and Israeli Jews should be rounded up all 6 million of them (coincidentally the same number as those slaughtered in the holocaust) and dumped in New Mexico.

This simplistic view of the Middle East as being just fine and dandy if only those darned American soldiers and Israelis go away is a crock.

I personally do not think a conventional army can combat terrorists and the Chaney-Bush method of handing out contract patronage and turning Iraq into a mercenary state where there are more private then state soldiers and huge corupt contracts that do not involve Iraqis in the rebuilding of the nation is sheer insanity.

That said, the US war on terror, is done whether any of us like it or not to the benefit of any of us in the Western world who want to continue enjoying the lifestyle we do.

American soldiers die, because we citizens of the West do not want to lower our standard of living and address our dependency on oil-simple as that.

If the US wasn't doing everyone's dirty work, we would have no access to oil, and our Western economies would collapse.

I say it again, its easy to shit on the US for being in Iraq but the same people who do this, will you give up your cars and walk?

More to the point, you think these terrorists simply vanish if you pretend they do not exist? You think this is about them only being who they are because we are in their countries? You think its that simple? You think terrorists simply stay within their borders and are rational people who only engage in self-defence?

People who take for granted their freedom and ability to walk into a pizza parlour without being blown up, think that way.

Those of us who have seen it, know if US soldiers were not dying in Iraq, it would be coming to a neighbourhood near you.

Some of it you can dismiss with the simplistic romantic notion that terrorists are victims, but most of it has nothing to do with victims and everything to do with religious fanatics who truly believe the West is a collective Satan that needs to be destroyed.

Those of you who blame it all on Israel have no idea if they were not on the front line taking all the anti-Western cultural and religious hatred, you would be directly.

My arguement is the method in which terrorism is being conducted-not whether it should be done or not.

I appreciate a lot of this is inter-connected to oil but the fact is we, you and I as individuals, as much as we do not think so, have a power not to use as much oil and to restrain ourselves as consumers. Until we do, this bashing the US for what it does is to me, hippocritical in that sense.

[quote=roobarb;522331]I truly believe that some believe really believe if the US just left Iraq everything would be fine. See no evil, hear no evil, and it vanishes. This reasoning also usually goes hand in hand with the comment that Israel is evil and the US should not be Israel's ally and its all Israel's fault and Israeli Jews should be rounded up all 6 million of them (coincidentally the same number as those slaughtered in the holocaust) and dumped in New Mexico.

This simplistic view of the Middle East as being just fine and dandy if only those darned American soldiers and Israelis go away is a crock.

I personally do not think a conventional army can combat terrorists and the Chaney-Bush method of handing out contract patronage and turning Iraq into a mercenary state where there are more private then state soldiers and huge corupt contracts that do not involve Iraqis in the rebuilding of the nation is sheer insanity.

That said, the US war on terror, is done whether any of us like it or not to the benefit of any of us in the Western world who want to continue enjoying the lifestyle we do.

American soldiers die, because we citizens of the West do not want to lower our standard of living and address our dependency on oil-simple as that.

If the US wasn't doing everyone's dirty work, we would have no access to oil, and our Western economies would collapse.

I say it again, its easy to shit on the US for being in Iraq but the same people who do this, will you give up your cars and walk?

More to the point, you think these terrorists simply vanish if you pretend they do not exist? You think this is about them only being who they are because we are in their countries? You think its that simple? You think terrorists simply stay within their borders and are rational people who only engage in self-defence?

People who take for granted their freedom and ability to walk into a pizza parlour without being blown up, think that way.

Those of us who have seen it, know if US soldiers were not dying in Iraq, it would be coming to a neighbourhood near you.

Some of it you can dismiss with the simplistic romantic notion that terrorists are victims, but most of it has nothing to do with victims and everything to do with religious fanatics who truly believe the West is a collective Satan that needs to be destroyed.

Those of you who blame it all on Israel have no idea if they were not on the front line taking all the anti-Western cultural and religious hatred, you would be directly.

My arguement is the method in which counter-terrorism is being conducted-not whether it should be done or not and I am bloody grateful American soldiers are doing it and dying so I can live the way I do.

I appreciate a lot of this is inter-connected to oil but the fact is we, you and I as individuals, as much as we do not think so, have a power not to use as much oil and to restrain ourselves as consumers. Until we do, this bashing the US for what it does is to me, hippocritical in that sense.

Those of you who think corupt mega national oil conglamorates are behind this should rememvber-those mega nationals have grown as large as they have because we as consumers have let them grow because of our insatiable appetites.

Maybe I am naive thinking that and I concede that.

More to the point, you think these terrorists simply vanish if you pretend they do not exist? You think this is about them only being who they are because we are in their countries? You think its that simple? You think terrorists simply stay within their borders and are rational people who only engage in self-defence?

People who take for granted their freedom and ability to walk into a pizza parlour without being blown up, think that way.

Those of us who have seen it, know if US soldiers were not dying in Iraq, it would be coming to a neighbourhood near you.

Some of it you can dismiss with the simplistic romantic notion that terrorists are victims, but most of it has nothing to do with victims and everything to do with religious fanatics who truly believe the West is a collective Satan that needs to be destroyed.

^ Excellent point roobarb! Now if some of those damn fearmonging Liberals can get that concept through their heads, they wouldn't spout such rheteric like "politics of fear".