Thread: Both capitalism and socialism are unsustainable

Both capitalism and socialism are unsustainable because they are growth economies and therefore cannot succeed within Earth’s ecology, which is a system with finite limits.

This is one for the intellectuals amongest you to debate over.

The reason...
Earth’s Terminal Energy - ETE

… WARNING!

Unless the global energy consumption is reduced rapidly—by mid 2006—to levels below 60EJ/year (6E+19 joules/year), our studies show that the runaway positive feedback loops that are destroying Earth’s ecosystems including ozone holes, global heating, extreme climatic events, toxic pollution, resources depletion, unethical conduct, war, and disease pandemics would reach the point of no return, overwhelm our life support systems and render most of our population centers uninhabitable by as early as 2015, possibly earlier.
Failure to rein back the global energy consumption to the levels below 60 exajoules by June 2006 would render the concept of sustainable management redundant (it seems highly unlikely that post industrial civilization would voluntarily sacrifice its perceived privileges and values in favor of sustaining life on Earth). MSRB is replacing its current program with the planet rescue operations, PRO.

Part 1. Introduction



Below are preliminary results of a study on Earth’s Terminal Energy (ETE) conducted by MSRB. This study attempts to answer some of the following questions:
- How much greenhouse gases and toxic pollutants would it take to destroy Earth’s ecosystems?
- What’s the total volume of pollution produced annually by humankind?
- What is the annual rate of increase in the production of pollution, especially of greenhouse gases- carbon dioxide equivalent gases, CO2e?
- What is the relationship between human activity (conversion and consumption of energy) and the increase in the overall pollution?
- At what rate of human activity would the cumulative effects of the pollution created by energy consumption overwhelm and destroy the ecosystems within a relatively short period (less than or equal to the average lifetime)?
- How long have we left before all/most of ecosystems collapse irreversibly committing life to extinction? A millennium, a century, a decade or two?

1. Earth’s still supporting life - but only just!



By what means would most of the living species on Earth’s land mass become extinct?
a. Incinerate Earth’s land mass to a depth of a few centimerters.
b. Destroy Earth’s ozone layer.
c. Suffocate life by removing the air.
d. Exhaust Earth’s supplies of potable water.
e. Deplete/destroy/poison the food chain to starve life.
f. Cook Earth by pumping large volumes of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
g. Poison Earth with toxic chemicals/ radionuclide.
h. Disable nature’s reproductive cycles.
j. Annihilate species via the spread of airborne and waterborne virulent diseases.
k. Apply extremes of climatic conditions.
l. Stuff Earth with garbage.
m. Wage wars (especially nuclear war).
n. All of the above.

Earth is a dynamic, life-supporting system; however, through the above means life would be annihilated directly, or indirectly by tearing apart the fabric of life on the planet when the intricate support mechanisms and ecosystems are destroyed.
The single factor that accelerates the destruction of Earth’s life support systems is the excessive consumption of “Dirty Energy.”


2. What’s Dirty Energy?



Dirty Energy, DE (rhymes with GE), is the energy profile of human activity on Earth. Energy that is converted from the fossil fuels and consumed through human activity is responsible for global heating, rapid degradation and imminent collapse of ecosystems.
All human activities require energy, most of which is supplied by converting the stored energy in fossil fuels to mechanical power, electricity, heat and greenhouse gases [as well as food.] The rate of consumption of DE is directly proportional to the amount of pollution created and is exponentially proportional to the poisoning of biosphere, environmental degradation and ultimately extinction of life on Earth. The more energy that is converted and consumed from fossil fuels, the more toxic substances and life-destroying pollutants are released into the environment. In most cases where the damage to life support systems is already extensive, the rate of collapse of ecosystems and extinction of life species increase superexponentially against any linear increase in human activities.

3. The Torching Energy: ETE Model

What is the critical rate of consumption of DE at which the ecosystems began to collapse irreversibly thus committing species to extinction?
The Torching Energy, or q[torch], [MSRB terminology] is the critical rate of DE consumption at which ecosystems begin to collapse irreversibly making most species extinct, especially the larger animals like humans, in a relatively short time. The ETE model calculates q[torch] at 9.51 terawatts (9.51E+12 joules/second).
According to the model, when the rate of human activity (energy consumption) exceeds q[torch] our planet’s ecosystems began to collapse. If q[torch] is not reduced, the collapse becomes irreversible resulting in the extinction of species on Earth within a relative short period of about 62 years.
[Note: The terminology “q[torch]” implies extensive damage to the environment which is tantamount to “torching” Earth, but it does not mean the actual incineration of the planet.]

4. Earth’s Terminal Energy - ETE



How much DE would it take to commit life to extinction?
The earth’s Terminal Energy, denoted by q[terminal], is the amount of DE converted through human activity at rates equal to or higher than the q[torch] that would annihilate most species (99 percent of all species) on the land mass and destroys most of the marine life in 0-62 years. According to our model q[terminal] is equal to 1.86E+22 joules (18.6 zettajoules).
When the rate of consumption of DE exceeds the q[torch] threshold, the above mentioned mechanisms including global warming (heating), toxic pollution, depletion of food and energy resources, unethical behavior, war, disease pandemics… create positive feedback loops that overwhelm and destroy the ecosystems thus committing life to extinction.


5. Exceeding the Torching Energy

In 1980 the consumption of DE exceeded q[torch]. Total energy consumption for 1980 reached 3.12E+20 joules, raising q[torch] to 9.89 terawatts.
Between 1890 and 2004 the amount of DE consumed by humans was almost exactly equal to q[terminal] or ETE {q[terminal] is equal to 1.86E+22 joules.} However, the conversion rate over the 114-year period remained lower than the critical rate (q[torch] = 9.51TW) until 1980 (it dipped marginally below q[torch] in 1981 and 1982).

6. Where We Are Now

In 2006 we consumed a staggering 5.07E+20 joules of DE [revised October7, 2007] globally, equivalent to the energy released by detonating about 9.3 million Hiroshima bombs at the rate of about 25,437 bombs per day throughout the entire year. The q[torch] rose to 16.1 terawatts, reducing the “shelf life” of our biosphere to about 38 years [calculated from 1980.]

7. The Time We Have Left

At the 2006 rates (q[torch] = 16.1 TW, revised October 7, 2007), and taking into account the cumulative harmful effects of energy consumption since 1980, we probably do not have too many years left on the life calendar.
Total systems failure, the irreversible collapse of all systems that comprise the life support matrix, is looming.
The life support matrix consists of intricate, interconnecting systems, including ecosystems, without which life on Earth cannot thrive. Final collapse of these systems leads to the extinction of life on Earth-omnicide.


From a life base to a time-bomb. Capitalism, the cannibalistic system of economy, has transformed Earth from a life base to a ticking time-bomb!

Believe it or not !!!!!!

There is no doubt that world economies are geared to be expanding economies - and there lies some of the problem.

Unfortunately it really comes down to too many people not enough planet.

Economies MUST GROW because people keep fucking and breeding. If we decrease the population then everything can slow down and be more manageable.

I thought I was the only who realized this, it's good to know I'm not alone......the planet is incapable of sustaining infinite growth we may have already past the point of no return ...that economic and ecological disaster are inevitable.......what politician would have the balls to run on campaign of zero population and economic growth.....

when you consider how difficult it was to convince the world of global warming what are the chances of convincing everyone that the very way we live/consume has to change or something very very bad is going to happen......

Yep, we need more enlightened US policies.

*Allow AIDS, famine, and genocide to kill millions in Africa.

*Promote same sex relationships and stigmatize child rearing
as the act of a "breeder".

*Maintain extended wars as much as possible.

*Go into the Middle East and really piss everyone off, get them
fighting with each other, then just pull out so all hell breaks loose.

*Give technology, aid, a trade agreements to states like N. Korea
and China that starve, kill, and otherwise limit their population.

Originally Posted by wyly

I thought I was the only who realized this, it's good to know I'm not alone......the planet is incapable of sustaining infinite growth we may have already past the point of no return ...that economic and ecological disaster are inevitable.......what politician would have the balls to run on campaign of zero population and economic growth.....

when you consider how difficult it was to convince the world of global warming what are the chances of convincing everyone that the very way we live/consume has to change or something very very bad is going to happen......

People should just stop having kids [especially in the 3rd world countries] when there is a very crappy life awaiting that kid. Why would you do that, anyway? Very cruel. But if they do have a kid the parents should kill themselves and give everything to the kid. [So as not to be a burden]

Originally Posted by bla bla

Yep, we need more enlightened US policies.

*Allow AIDS, famine, and genocide to kill millions in Africa.

*Promote same sex relationships and stigmatize child rearing
as the act of a "breeder".

*Maintain extended wars as much as possible.

*Go into the Middle East and really piss everyone off, get them
fighting with each other, then just pull out so all hell breaks loose.

*Give technology, aid, a trade agreements to states like N. Korea
and China that starve, kill, and otherwise limit their population.

well we'll have to give China credit they started their population reduction long ago.....while we in the west were criticizing their brutal approach to reducing over population they realized it had to be done to avoid a complete collapse of their society and stuck to it.....holding back their economy will be a more difficult challenge, maybe impossible...

Originally Posted by Zaragrunudgeyon

People should just stop having kids [especially in the 3rd world countries] when there is a very crappy life awaiting that kid. Why would you do that, anyway? Very cruel. But if they do have a kid the parents should kill themselves and give everything to the kid. [So as not to be a burden]

3rd world countries need their kids, they have no social security/pension, their kids are their old age security.....

to reduce population the poor need to be educated, education reduces poverty, wealth reduces population growth.....France has reached ZPG some time ago as has Canada, population growth now comes through immigration....

Originally Posted by wyly

well we'll have to give China credit they started their population reduction long ago.....while we in the west were criticizing their brutal approach to reducing over population they realized it had to be done to avoid a complete collapse of their society and stuck to it.....holding back their economy will be a more difficult challenge, maybe impossible...

And if they dont like it arrest them as political prisoners- get as
much free labor as you can out of them- then send them off on
the "death bus" to have their organs harvested, and their body
ground up into animal feed.

Originally Posted by wyly

3rd world countries need their kids, they have no social security/pension, their kids are their old age security.....

to reduce population the poor need to be educated, education reduces poverty, wealth reduces population growth.....France has reached ZPG some time ago as has Canada, population growth now comes through immigration....

Why do they want "population growth" --------------- to grow the economies..... which comes down to greed... greed... greed... it's always greed.