Thread: Leave Russia Alone, Get Out of Europe

The Cold War has been over for twenty years. Europe, under the EU, is doing just fine and no longer needs the US to participate in NATO. I have two separate worries.

1. Has President Bush and Vladimir Putin agreed that what the world needs is a new cold war, where the threat of Russia keeps nations like Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran in check? Possibly forcing Europe to increase defense spending, whereby they increase purchases of US weapons and weapon systems? Will Europe give us more military basis in Europe? Is Putin merely befriending Iran in order to gain their trust only to undermine it later down the road?

2. There is no Cold War Conspiracy and the United States is foolishly antagonizing the Russian people, and unnecessarily keeping us tied up in Europe?

Either way, it smells like stupidity or greed to me.

How many bases does the US maintain in Europe that are exclusively US staffed and controlled? None. They are all jointly controlled and they are heavily staffed by local civilian labor.

Have any European countries hosting US facilities asked the US to leave? Not one has.

Does a US presence benefit host countries? Yes. I bolsters the local economy, strenghtens ties between the host country and the US, improves the host countrys military capabilities and demonstrates that the US honors it commitment to protect Europe.

Putin can spout his nationalistic rhetoric all he wishes but the reality is that he knows that the US will not cater to his demands to leave Europe.

Originally Posted by Bourne

How many bases does the US maintain in Europe that are exclusively US staffed and controlled? None. They are all jointly controlled and they are heavily staffed by local civilian labor. Have any European countries hosting US facilities asked the US to leave? Not one has.
Does a US presence benefit host countries? Yes. I bolsters the local economy, strenghtens ties between the host country and the US, improves the host countrys military capabilities and demonstrates that the US honors it commitment to protect Europe. Putin can spout his nationalistic rhetoric all he wishes but the reality is that he knows that the US will not cater to his demands to leave Europe.

Is this US Military sponsored welfare? If you are a country like Germany who is on the way to being completely well armed with state of the art equipment, and I mean rockin' and rollin' 1st class tanks and plenty of top of the line MIG Folcrums. Do they need us?

Is our presence there a gimmee, and no real gains for us? Who cares if Putin freaked out and rolled on them.....that'd be one less walfare mouth to feed. We've sat on Europe since 1945 and what has it got us?

Originally Posted by Goldwater

Is this US Military sponsored welfare? If you are a country like Germany who is on the way to being completely well armed with state of the art equipment, and I mean rockin' and rollin' 1st class tanks and plenty of top of the line MIG Folcrums. Do they need us?

Is our presence there a gimmee, and no real gains for us? Who cares if Putin freaked out and rolled on them.....that'd be one less walfare mouth to feed. We've sat on Europe since 1945 and what has it got us?

Germany is well armed and trained, in part, by the US military. German forces and US forces share several large facilities which are jointly funded by both governemnts. German nationals act as the bulk of civilian support staff at those facilities.

In return the US maintains forward bases, maintenance, storage and support facilities. As an example, our F-22s are now being based and serviced in Italy and Germany instead of being required to return to CONUS for service. Much more practical and economical.

Here's is a source link describing the advantages of maintaining a military presence in Europe: JINSA Online -- JINSA Delegation Observes USAFE Operations at Ramstein Air Base

Oh please don't tell me you buy into the bullshit Russian nationalist rhetoric....

Originally Posted by Colin

Oh please don't tell me you buy into the bullshit Russian nationalist rhetoric....

I don't buy into Putin's posturing. However, I do believe we need to get out of NATO and out of Europe, as well as much of the near east. The only bases we really need are navel bases anyway. Personally, I like the Russians, I just hate their politics. While I do support Russian Nationalism, I don't support Russian interference in Europe, but the EU is strong enough to protect themselves. They don't need us to babysit them anymore.

I would suggest that Europe is on its feet, no WW2 conditions are still
present. I also think that regional areas where the US is most likely
interested in responding to threat have shifted. It should be time to
restructure the EU presence to fewer strategic locations. We clearly
have more demanding issues.

Some political scientists suggest that the today’s world is far from the ideal described by F.Fukuama in his famous article “The End of History” describing the world after the Cold war. That scientists suggest we are on the eve of the new confrontation, and the US and Russia aren’t “on the one side”. In this sense it’s very important what politics the new governments in the both countries would lead.

Originally Posted by Burning Giraffe

The Cold War has been over for twenty years. Europe, under the EU, is doing just fine and no longer needs the US to participate in NATO. I have two separate worries.

1. Has President Bush and Vladimir Putin agreed that what the world needs is a new cold war, where the threat of Russia keeps nations like Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran in check? Possibly forcing Europe to increase defense spending, whereby they increase purchases of US weapons and weapon systems? Will Europe give us more military basis in Europe? Is Putin merely befriending Iran in order to gain their trust only to undermine it later down the road?

2. There is no Cold War Conspiracy and the United States is foolishly antagonizing the Russian people, and unnecessarily keeping us tied up in Europe?

Either way, it smells like stupidity or greed to me.

With due respect your attempt to portray the US as evil and Vladimir Putin as some innocent victim being picked on is well shall we say a tad simplistic if not naive.

First off it is not just the US that has problems with Russia but all of the EEC, North America, Australia, New Zealand, Japan.

Why? Because Mr. Putin deliberately and illegally created a state monopoly on all the country's oil, natural gas, water and mineral resources killing and imprisoning anyone who dared try operate a non state run business.

He now intends to use his state monopolies to become the no.1 source of oil, natural gas and fresh water as well as titanium, platinum, copper, zinc, and other precious metals for the EEC.

Mr. Putin is not some innocent virgin. He runs a ruthless, state killing machine that has murdered thousands of political opponents and runs the country with sheer brute force and an alliance with the most dangerous organized crime syndicate this world knows. If you think the Russian crime syndicate that operates in alliance with Putin is a bunch of innocent virgins you really should take a look see what is going in inside Russia and who Mr. Putin is and what he stands for and how he has now manouvered himself to be the Prime MInister of Russia to get around constitutional laws and placed a stooge of his in as President so he can continue to run a one man dictatorship propped by the former KGB.

Sorry but this is not even the US fighting with Russia its actually the EEC. If you bothered to find out the overtures Americans tried to make which were rejected by Putin you would not try depict Putin as such an innocent virgin.

Putin is without a doubt one of the most intelligent and cold, ruthless, cunning, meticulous leaders we have seen this century. He is as much a danger to world stability as anyone.

His playing off Iran and the West is sheer politics. While he sells useless technology and uranium to the Iranians he also double deals with the Turks and Israelis as to water and oil pipeline projects. Mr. Putin will succeed in securing a pipeline that will run his gas and oil straight through Turkey and Jordan into Israel where it will then be exported to Europe to replace dwindling oil reserves in the Middle East.

Mr. Putin needs Europe and the US as oil and natural gas and fresh water clients. He is far from some innocent victim.

Originally Posted by Burning Giraffe

The Cold War has been over for twenty years. Europe, under the EU, is doing just fine and no longer needs the US to participate in NATO. I have two separate worries.

1. Has President Bush and Vladimir Putin agreed that what the world needs is a new cold war, where the threat of Russia keeps nations like Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran in check? Possibly forcing Europe to increase defense spending, whereby they increase purchases of US weapons and weapon systems? Will Europe give us more military basis in Europe? Is Putin merely befriending Iran in order to gain their trust only to undermine it later down the road?

2. There is no Cold War Conspiracy and the United States is foolishly antagonizing the Russian people, and unnecessarily keeping us tied up in Europe?

Either way, it smells like stupidity or greed to me.

There is a very obvious third reason. Putin simply wants to gain power by amassing billions and billions of dollars selling armaments and nuclear materials to Iran etc. That he is completely irresponsible and reckless. this causes the US to have to respond with anti balistic missile systems in Poland as a defense against the potential firings from an Iran that may now or soon have that capability.