Thread: 'Even the Jews Did Not Do Such Cruel Things'

James Taranto WSJ

'Even the Jews Did Not Do Such Cruel Things'
Last month we noted the curious silence of those who accuse America of "torture" about the release of an al Qaeda manual giving instructions for actual torture. Something similar can be observed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It turns out that Palestinians are worse off left to their own devices than they were under Israeli "occupation." The Jerusalem Post's Khaled Abu Toameh reports from unoccupied Gaza:

Hassan al-Bazam, 20, who works as a bodyguard for [Ismail] Haniyeh [the prime minister and a member of the Hamas terrorist group], was kidnapped Monday night by Fatah gunmen. He said the kidnappers tortured him and forced him to curse God and the prophet Muhammad.

"I was on my way to the Sheikh Radwan neighborhood [in Gaza City] when I was kidnapped by Fatah gunmen who were in two cars," Bazam said. "They took me to a building next to the beach, where they beat me severely with clubs and rifles.
"They extinguished cigarettes on my body and melted candles on my back. They also hung me from my hands and started shooting between my legs."

He said the kidnappers demanded a list of Hamas activists in his neighborhood and questioned him about the killing last month of a senior Fatah militiaman.

Bazam said he was released seven hours later, but only after he agreed to curse God and Muhammad. Bazam said the kidnappers also shaved his eyebrows, beard and part of his head, which was then marked with a Force 17 [Presidential Guard] sign.

"These people are real murderers," Bazam said. "Even the Jews did not do such cruel things to us."

Even Reuters quotes a Palestinian legislator who says that Palestinians are "so fed up with the armed groups 'they now wish the Israeli occupation would take over in Gaza or hope for the return of Jordanian rule in the West Bank' to get rid of them."

The response from America's detractors (e.g., Glenn Greenwald) to our point about al Qaeda's actual torture vs. phony accusations of American torture was, essentially this: Well, of course al Qaeda tortures people! What do you expect? America is supposed to be better.

To this way of thinking, terrorists are wild animals--violent, yes, but that's just the way they are. Americans and Israelis are human and obliged to treat "animals" humanely because we are better than they are. It is this double standard--holding America or Israel to an impossibly exacting moral standard while holding their adversaries to no moral standard at all--that dehumanizes the enemy.

I thought I would post this for the leftists so that they can see what REAL torture is all about, not the "presumed" torture they so politically love to proclaim America is doing.

I don't assume this will matter to the leftists however. In their minds, or lack thereof, they just think this is all about political gamesmanship.

Originally Posted by Truth Detector

James Taranto WSJ .

Is this how we beat organized crime? By committing acts like the mafia gangsters did?

Originally Posted by Truth Detector

I thought I would post this for the leftists so that they can see what REAL torture is all about, not the "presumed" torture they so politically love to proclaim America is doing..

Well, this isn't "real" torture either. For that we have to follow the trail of the extraordinary rendition flights....

Originally Posted by Latherty

Is this how we beat organized crime? By committing acts like the mafia gangsters did?

Is this what you call substantive debate? By making up words that were never typed?

You are a fascinating study in denial.

Originally Posted by Latherty

Well, this isn't "real" torture either. For that we have to follow the trail of the extraordinary rendition flights....

Yeah right Latherty. ::wink wink::

As if you knew what you were typing about. :whistling:

Originally Posted by Truth Detector

Yeah right Latherty. ::wink wink::

As if you knew what you were typing about. :whistling:

You are comparing apples to apples. What is the diffence among the tortures, the severity? What is morally wrong is morally wrong, and does not depend on the severity.

Let me ask you, by that logic is a person murdering another a little bad but that person killing 5 a lot bad?

Originally Posted by Truth Detector

Is this what you call substantive debate? By making up words that were never typed?

You are a fascinating study in denial.

I find it interesting you can't see the similarities between mob rivals and Fatah /IJ rivalries. They are both essentially organized criminal gangs at the lower levels. The politicians seem to be less involved...

Same thing happened with the IRA and the Unionists - the political militancy separated from the organized crime, the latter continuing much as it had before. Its probably to be expected, really.

Its certainly no excuse for torture by the US or Isreal.

So...

Because Al Qaeda is doing worse forms of torture than USA is, then the USA way of torture becomes "A Good Thing" (Tm)???

So, basically youa re saying it's ok to rape women because they rape children? (To use an analogy)

Originally Posted by Think for myself

You are comparing apples to apples. What is the diffence among the tortures, the severity? What is morally wrong is morally wrong, and does not depend on the severity.

Where does morality come into interrogation techniques in order to protect US citizens?

It's immoral to kill your fellow man. If we go by your standard, we should disband the military immediately and never send them to "kill" our enemies.

This is not about "degrees" of torture. This is about the definition of torture. According to you, there are NO methods that are acceptable. Regardless if they are harmful to the ones it is being done to.

Example: One method of HUMANE torture is to isolate the subject from all outside contact. Is this acceptable? According to your definition; No. It is merely a lesser degree. According to your definition, it is no better than attaching electrodes to ones genitals, or cutting off someone's arm.

Originally Posted by Think for myself

Let me ask you, by that logic is a person murdering another a little bad but that person killing 5 a lot bad?

Now you are attempting to compare apples to oranges. See above for LOGICAL comparisons of YOUR moral dilemma.

If protecting US citizens requires a moral equivalency test, we should never attempt to obtain any information from our enemies and we should disband the military. After all, killing is immoral in EVERY instance just as torture is.

I am fascinated by the "degree" argument. Everything is a matter of the degree, and if you think that attaching electrodes to someone's genitals is the moral equivalent to isolation, you stand alone in such a naive perspective of REALITY and are arguing for the sake of argument and not for the sake of an honest dialogue.