Obama and Afghanistan

**bluesman** · 18th October 2009 10:53 AM

To me, afghanistan is a problem. Obama is facing a situation where regardless of what he does he will be criticized. The fact is that it is not purely a miliary problem and just throwing troops at it will not be a solution. Karzai was put in place by George W Bush and he turns out to be too corupt to gain the trust of the people. The other problem is that Afhanistan was never really a country in thier own eyes. If Obama simply sends more troops over there without addressing this problem, he is wasting human lives. Also, General McCrystal needs to respect the chain of command and quit playing politics. The right wingers were all about supporting the Commander-in-Chief when it was a war of choice initiated by George W Bush but when it comes time to support Obama, all we see is that they stand ready to attack the commander in chief from every angle possible. It is a complicated situation and a teabagger bumpersticker mentality isn't going to be the solution.

**Fishmint** · 18th October 2009 10:57 AM

[quote name='bluesman' date='18 October 2009 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1255884799' post='40462']

To me, afghanistan is a problem. Obama is facing a situation where regardless of what he does he will be criticized.

[/quote]

That is every situation he faces. The right will never give him credit for anything. But I agree, both options have serious repercussions.[quote name='bluesman' date='18 October 2009 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1255884799' post='40462']

It is a complicated situation and a teabagger bumpersticker mentality isn't going to be the solution.

[/quote]

And neither will the Left's bumpersticker anti-war mentality.

**justoneman** · 18th October 2009 11:05 AM

The whole idea of the invasion of Afganistan was to attempt to get those responsible for 911. That effort was over years and years ago. We have been dumping billions into trying to make Afganistan france. It never will be. I am not happy the mission has changed there. When the Soviets left Afghanistan, there was nothing left. Kabul was nothing but rubble. They had no sanitation or electricity or schools. It is not our job to try to restore this country to former pre-Soviet invasion status, yet at some point this turned into the mission. Even before the Soviet invasion Afghanistan was a loose connection of warlord controlled territories. When we eventually leave it will be that way just as it is right now. that is not something we can change without a million troops there for 30 years. In many ways Afghanistan is worse than Vietnam. We need to get out.

**nomadrider** · 18th October 2009 07:55 PM

[quote name='bluesman' date='18 October 2009 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1255884799' post='40462']

To me, afghanistan is a problem. Obama is facing a situation where regardless of what he does he will be criticized. The fact is that it is not purely a miliary problem and just throwing troops at it will not be a solution. Karzai was put in place by George W Bush and he turns out to be too corupt to gain the trust of the people. The other problem is that Afhanistan was never really a country in thier own eyes. If Obama simply sends more troops over there without addressing this problem, he is wasting human lives. Also, General McCrystal needs to respect the chain of command and quit playing politics. The right wingers were all about supporting the Commander-in-Chief when it was a war of choice initiated by George W Bush but when it comes time to support Obama, all we see is that they stand ready to attack the commander in chief from every angle possible. It is a complicated situation and a teabagger bumpersticker mentality isn't going to be the solution.

[/quote]

One has to look at the larger picture. The Afghan/Pakistan region is the breeding ground for Islamo-Fascists, home of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. To abandon Afghanistan is to abandon the region, allow the Taliban to take control , institute Sharia law, and support Al Qaeda with funds from the poppy fields. This, in turn, spills over into Pakistan. Gen. McChrystal understands that to win the hearts and minds of Afghans, he needs to conduct operations on the ground with enough troops to fight a counter-insurgency war as was done in Iraq. Thus, his report and request for more troops was sent up channels to Obama. This weekend, as I understand it, Obama has said that they want a Afghan government they can rely on, a stable government before more troops will be sent. This is a political answer saying "request denied". All governments are corrupt to some degree, and Afghanistan probably more so than others, but the overarching goal has to be stability of the region. That stability is accomplished with boots on the ground first, then focus on the political improvements. In my opinion, Obama is stalling, looking for a way out of this war.

**bluesman** · 18th October 2009 09:28 PM

[quote name='nomadrider' date='18 October 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1255917331' post='40743']

One has to look at the larger picture. The Afghan/Pakistan region is the breeding ground for Islamo-Fascists, home of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. To abandon Afghanistan is to abandon the region, allow the Taliban to take control , institute Sharia law, and support Al Qaeda with funds from the poppy fields. This, in turn, spills over into Pakistan. Gen. McChrystal understands that to win the hearts and minds of Afghans, he needs to conduct operations on the ground with enough troops to fight a counter-insurgency war as was done in Iraq. Thus, his report and request for more troops was sent up channels to Obama. This weekend, as I understand it, Obama has said that they want a Afghan government they can rely on, a stable government before more troops will be sent. This is a political answer saying "request denied". All governments are corrupt to some degree, and Afghanistan probably more so than others, but the overarching goal has to be stability of the region. That stability is accomplished with boots on the ground first, then focus on the political improvements. In my opinion, Obama is stalling, looking for a way out of this war.

[/quote]

How long have we been over there? Obama inherited a mess and it was George W Bush who was stalling. They always kept a positive spin on it and only now after George W Bush is out of office we are not getting a more honest assesment of the actual situation. I think it is wise to re-think the strategy since what we have done has not worked. McCrystal's job is the military aspect but the solution will not come from military action alone. Afghanistan is not Iraq and what worked in Iraq is not going to work in Afghanistan. Obama has already deployed addtional troops and I think it is worth the extra couple of weeks to try to do what is best and the Obama haters are going to hate him either way so they made thier opinion politically insignificant.

**nomadrider** · 19th October 2009 10:57 AM

[quote name='bluesman' date='18 October 2009 - 10:28 PM' timestamp='1255922902' post='40777']

How long have we been over there? Obama inherited a mess and it was George W Bush who was stalling. They always kept a positive spin on it and only now after George W Bush is out of office we are not getting a more honest assesment of the actual situation. I think it is wise to re-think the strategy since what we have done has not worked. McCrystal's job is the military aspect but the solution will not come from military action alone. Afghanistan is not Iraq and what worked in Iraq is not going to work in Afghanistan. Obama has already deployed addtional troops and I think it is worth the extra couple of weeks to try to do what is best and the Obama haters are going to hate him either way so they made thier opinion politically insignificant.

[/quote]

Liberals sound the familiar bell "it's Bush's fault, it's Bush's fault". The situation is Afgh/Pakis region is what it is, regardless of it's origins. And now, 9 months into his administration, Obama continues to procrastinate. Why? To appease his left base. I won't be surprised next week if Obama announces he's going begin negotiations with Al Qaeda while Gen. McChrystal is left to twist in the wind.

"A bad peace is even worse than war."- Tacitus

**Defensor** · 19th October 2009 11:20 AM

[quote name='nomadrider' date='18 October 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1255917331' post='40743']

One has to look at the larger picture. The Afghan/Pakistan region is the breeding ground for Islamo-Fascists, home of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. To abandon Afghanistan is to abandon the region, allow the Taliban to take control , institute Sharia law, and support Al Qaeda with funds from the poppy fields. This, in turn, spills over into Pakistan. Gen. McChrystal understands that to win the hearts and minds of Afghans, he needs to conduct operations on the ground with enough troops to fight a counter-insurgency war as was done in Iraq. Thus, his report and request for more troops was sent up channels to Obama. This weekend, as I understand it, Obama has said that they want a Afghan government they can rely on, a stable government before more troops will be sent. This is a political answer saying "request denied". All governments are corrupt to some degree, and Afghanistan probably more so than others, but the overarching goal has to be stability of the region. That stability is accomplished with boots on the ground first, then focus on the political improvements. In my opinion, Obama is stalling, looking for a way out of this war.

[/quote]

Are you serious? This must be satire. "Islamo-Fascists"? It's not 2003, that crap doesn't fly anymore.

The war should never have been started in the first place, and certainly it should not be continued now.

**nomadrider** · 19th October 2009 02:00 PM

[quote name='Defensor' date='19 October 2009 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1255972804' post='41013']

Are you serious? This must be satire. "Islamo-Fascists"? It's not 2003, that crap doesn't fly anymore.

The war should never have been started in the first place, and certainly it should not be continued now.

[/quote]

I assume you never watched the video of the Islamo-Fascists beheading a western captive. Your political progressiveness is built on shifting sands of "world opinion". I suppose you would prefer to call them your 'buds'.

And say something meaningful in defense of your statement "never been started in the first place, and certainly it should not be continued now."

**International Underwriter** · 19th October 2009 04:38 PM

[quote name='nomadrider' date='18 October 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1255917331' post='40743']

One has to look at the larger picture. The Afghan/Pakistan region is the breeding ground for Islamo-Fascists, home of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. To abandon Afghanistan is to abandon the region,[/quote]

Abandon the region? Excellent idea. Who cares? Al qaeda was out of there years ago. And we were only there for the pipeline anyway. And the only reason Afghanistan was included as part of the middle east was a nomenclature change to the "greater Middle East" as justification of a longer war

[quote name='nomadrider' date='18 October 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1255917331' post='40743']allow the Taliban to take control , institute Sharia law, and support Al Qaeda with funds from the poppy fields.[/quote]

The Taliban do not believe in drugs and poppies. the restarting of Afghan poppy fields only occurred after we meddled there. As for sharia law, it is their country. In iraq we got rid of a secuilar gov't and now have sharia law there......are you similarly concerned?

[quote name='nomadrider' date='18 October 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1255917331' post='40743']This, in turn, spills over into Pakistan.[/quote]

It has already spilled over to paksitan. And they spilling over sort of reminds me of Vietnam and spilling over to cambodia. Just curious? how'd that work out for us?

[quote name='nomadrider' date='18 October 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1255917331' post='40743']Gen. McChrystal understands that to win the hearts and minds of Afghans, he needs to conduct operations on the ground with enough troops to fight a counter-insurgency war as was done in Iraq. Thus, his report and request for more troops was sent up channels to Obama. This weekend, as I understand it,[/quote]

a proper counter insurgency strategy would prolly require 500,000 boots on the ground. Would you seriously support that sort of commitment? Can you say draft?

[quote name='nomadrider' date='18 October 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1255917331' post='40743']Obama has said that they want a Afghan government they can rely on, a stable government before more troops will be sent. This is a political answer saying "request denied". All governments are corrupt to some degree, and Afghanistan probably more so than others, but the overarching goal has to be stability of the region. That stability is accomplished with boots on the ground first, then focus on the political improvements. In my opinion, Obama is stalling, looking for a way out of this war.

[/quote]

Karzai is past corrupt. And most likely would lose any honest election. The last time we supported a government that was in charge of only the capital, was Vietnam and Saigon. Once again, how'd that work out for us?

**Defensor** · 19th October 2009 05:58 PM

[quote name='nomadrider' date='19 October 2009 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1255982445' post='41094']

I assume you never watched the video of the Islamo-Fascists beheading a western captive. Your political progressiveness is built on shifting sands of "world opinion". I suppose you would prefer to call them your 'buds'.[/QUOTE]

I assume you never watched the video of the U.S. and Israel blowing up and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people around the world. Again and again and again.

Your political primitiveness is built on the shifting sands of ignorance.

And say something meaningful in defense of your statement "never been started in the first place, and certainly it should not be continued now."

Personally I prefer not having hundreds of thousands of people die unnecessarily, along with trillions of dollars of debt, entire countries destroyed, and irreversible damage to America's moral standing.

But that's just me.