Thread: Torture didn't stop attacks? Who Woulda Thought..

White House To Declassify “Holy Grail” Torture Report That Could Undercut Cheney | The Plum Line

Government officials familiar with the CIA’s early interrogations say the most powerful evidence of apparent excesses is contained in the “top secret” May 7, 2004, inspector general report, based on more than 100 interviews, a review of the videotapes and 38,000 pages of documents. The full report remains closely held, although White House officials have told political allies that they intend to declassify it for public release when the debate quiets over last month’s release of the Justice Department’s interrogation memos…
Although some useful information was produced, the report concluded that “it is difficult to determine conclusively whether interrogations have provided information critical to interdicting specific imminent attacks,” according to the Justice Department’s declassified summary of it.

This is a killer blow to the pro-torture side's argument that torture was a valuable tool in protecting lives.

The IG would not have the clearance nor expertise to do an assessment of an intelligence operation or program. And why an IG report would be "top secret" is a mystery, as none of the IG people will have such a clearance.

The IG is good at determining the total # of staples per stapler in the Dept. of Agriculture. It's audits cover:

(2) the term “establishment” means the Department of Agriculture, Commerce, Defense, Education, Energy, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, the Interior, Justice, Labor, State, Transportation, Homeland Security, or the Treasury; the Agency for International Development, the Community Development Financial Institutions Fund, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the General Services Administration, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the Office of Personnel Management, the Railroad Retirement Board, the Resolution Trust Corporation, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Small Business Administration, the Corporation for National and Community Service, the Veterans’ Administration, the Social Security Administration, the Tennessee Valley Authority, or the Export-Import Bank, as the case may be;

And it's relation to intelligence covers that in the law:

US CODE: Title 5a,8H. Additional provisions with respect to Inspectors General of the Intelligence Community

You'll find that the IG does not investigate such functions.

Originally Posted by GraspingForPeace

This is a killer blow to the pro-torture side's argument that torture was a valuable tool in protecting lives.[/indent]

Torture does work. That is why Sen. McCain opposes real torture, for it workerd on him.

Now, Lt. McCain was severely beaten many times, while already sporting serious injuries. To equate what was done at Guantanamo to what heppened to McCain is a disservice to the Senator.

Note-somewhere, right now, some CIA operative is chopping off body parts of some terrorist, asking questions. Thank God. It is a dirty rough game and played for keeps. The Church Commission crippled the US intelligence ability and it has never recovered. Intelligence operatives break laws. Lots of laws, serious laws. No other way to do the job.

Originally Posted by ArizonaIrish

The IG would not have the clearance nor expertise to do an assessment of an intelligence operation or program. And why an IG report would be "top secret" is a mystery, as none of the IG people will have such a clearance.

The IG is good at determining the total # of staples per stapler in the Dept. of Agriculture. It's audits cover:

(2) the term “establishment” means the Department of Agriculture, Commerce, Defense, Education, Energy, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, the Interior, Justice, Labor, State, Transportation, Homeland Security, or the Treasury; the Agency for International Development, the Community Development Financial Institutions Fund, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the General Services Administration, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the Office of Personnel Mnaagement, the Railroad Retirement Board, the Resolution Trust Corporation, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Small Business Administration, the Corporation for National and Community Service, the Veterans’ Administration, the Social Security Administration, the Tennessee Valley Authority, or the Export-Import Bank, as the case may be;

And it's relation to intelligence covers that in the law:

US CODE: Title 5a,8H. Additional provisions with respect to Inspectors General of the Intelligence Community

You'll find that the IG does not investigate such functions.

Well apparently they did... so, yes, they do investigate such functions.

Torture does work. That is why Sen. McCain opposes real torture, for it workerd on him.

...It worked to cripple him, yes.

Now, Lt. McCain was severely beaten many times, while already sporting serious injuries. To equate what was done at Guantanamo to what heppened to McCain is a disservice to the Senator.

I never did so.

Note-somewhere, right now, some CIA operative is chopping off body parts of some terrorist, asking questions. Thank God. It is a dirty rough game and played for keeps. The Church Commission crippled the US intelligence ability and it has never recovered. Intelligence operatives break laws. Lots of laws, serious laws. No other way to do the job.

Uh, yes there are other ways to do the job, within the LAWS.

Originally Posted by GraspingForPeace

White House To Declassify “Holy Grail” Torture Report That Could Undercut Cheney | The Plum Line




This is a killer blow to the pro-torture side's argument that torture was a valuable tool in protecting lives.
[/indent]

You can include Pelosi and a whole shit load of Democrats in that pro-torture crowd.

As far as what was learned from those valuable interogation techniques ? They havn't been released the memo's yet so how the fuck would you know ?

Originally Posted by Six

You can include Pelosi and a whole shit load of Democrats in that pro-torture crowd.

As far as what was learned from those valuable interogation techniques ? They havn't been released the memo's yet so how the fuck would you know ?

The fact that they haven't released any solid information on the effectiveness of torture was proof enough for me. A conflicting report that goes against what torture advocates are stating is just better news.

And they haven't released what memos yet? They've released many memos already.

Originally Posted by Six

You can include Pelosi and a whole shit load of Democrats in that pro-torture crowd.

As far as what was learned from those valuable interogation techniques ? They havn't been released the memo's yet so how the fuck would you know ?

Parts of it was leaked already. And yeah I don't mind prosecuting Pelosi as long as we get Bush and his lawyers.

First the statement being cited concerned detainees who did not have much information to begin with, not the top three which did produced information which stopped attacks and second the cite goes on to say

"The report's conclusions nonetheless prompted CIA general counsel John A. Rizzo to request fresh statements by the Justice Department that what the agency had been doing was indeed legal. Steven G. Bradbury, then deputy assistant attorney general, responded in May 2005 by issuing three opinions explaining why the interrogations did not violate the Convention Against Torture."

Second where in the cite does it say for a fact that no attacks were stopped?

Clue, it doesn't. It only states that from the information the IG saw and used in it's report it could not determine if it did or did not. So your title is fallacious.

If it is inconclusive, then why is it such a blow? One thing that is conclusive is that prior to people believing that torture was used we had several attacksa on our soil. Since we started torturing people we haven't had another one. That IS conclusive.
Seems like that would deliver a blow.

Originally Posted by GraspingForPeace

The fact that they haven't released any solid information on the effectiveness of torture was proof enough for me.

Not being given information is "good enough" for you? On what basis do you make decisions?

It works. Waterboarding is very effective, we know that because we have used it in our own SERE training (I have an acquaintance who went through SERE, and yes, it works verey well). And if any of our soldiers would be captured and waterboarded, we would be thrilled to death for normally they are tortured using extreme physical mutilation then beheaded.

There is a real difference. Those people we have captured have no protections under the third and fourth Geneva conventions. And they actions they commit in violating the "laws of war" cause untold numbers of deaths for civilians.