Thread: Georgia May Have Committed War Crimes

BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Georgia accused of targeting civilians

The BBC has discovered evidence that Georgia may have committed war crimes in its attack on its breakaway region of South Ossetia in August.

Eyewitnesses have described how its tanks fired directly into an apartment block, and how civilians were shot at as they tried to escape the fighting.

Research by the international investigative organisation Human Rights Watch also points to indiscriminate use of force by the Georgian military, and the possible deliberate targeting of civilians.

Indiscriminate use of force is a violation of the Geneva Conventions, and serious violations are considered to be war crimes.

The allegations are now raising concerns among Georgia's supporters in the West.

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband has told the BBC the attack on South Ossetia was "reckless".

He said he had raised the issue of possible Georgian war crimes with the government in Tbilisi.

The evidence was gathered by the BBC on the first unrestricted visit to South Ossetia by a foreign news organisation since the conflict.

Georgia's attempt to re-conquer the territory triggered a Russian invasion and the most serious crisis in relations between the Kremlin and the West since the Cold War.

And Georgians themselves have suffered. We confirmed the systematic destruction of former Georgian villages inside South Ossetia.

Some homes appear to have been not just burned by Ossetians, but also bulldozed by the territory's Russian-backed authorities.

The war began when Georgia launched artillery attacks on targets in the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, at about 2330 on 7 August 2008.

Georgia said at the time that it was responding to increasing attacks on its own villages by South Ossetia militia, although it later said its action was provoked by an earlier Russian invasion.

Eye-witness account

Georgy Tadtayev, a 21-year-old dental student, was one of the Ossetian civilians killed during the fighting.

His mother, Taya Sitnik, 45, a college lecturer, told the BBC he bled to death in her arms on the morning of 9 August after a fragment from a Georgian tank shell hit him in the throat as they were both sheltering from artillery fire in the basement of her block of flats.

Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili refutes the allegations of war crimes

Mrs Sitnik said she subsequently saw the tank positioned a few metres from the building, firing shells into every floor.

Extensive damage to the five-storey block appeared consistent with her version of events.

She said she and her son were watching television when the Georgian attack began.

"They started firing not from rifles, but from heavy weapons. Shells were exploding."

"We jumped up straight away, switched off the lights and ran down to the cellar."

"And we sat here on boxes. We thought it would end, but the firing got heavier and heavier," she added.

"They went on firing all the next day without stopping. At some point there was a pause, and we saw Georgian soldiers going along the street in their Nato uniforms," according to Mrs Sitnik.

"Then they started firing again, even more heavily. The Grad rockets were coming over all the time."

"How can you trust those people now? What possible friendship can there be? Let them all be cursed, cursed for the deaths of our children."

Neighbours said another resident of the block, Khazbi Gagloyev, also died of wounds received during the attacks.

'Basements targeted'

The Russian prosecutor's office is investigating more than 300 possible cases of civilians killed by the Georgian military.

Some of those may be Ossetian paramilitaries, but Human Rights Watch believes the figure of 300-400 civilians is a "useful starting point".

That would represent more than 1% of the population of Tskhinvali - the equivalent of 70,000 deaths in London.

Allison Gill, director of the Moscow office of Human Rights Watch, said: "We're very concerned at the use of indiscriminate force by the Georgian military in Tskhinvali.

"Tskhinvali is a densely populated city and as such military action needs to be very careful that it doesn't endanger civilians."

"We know that in the early stages there were tank attacks and Grad rockets used by Georgian forces," she added.

"Grad rockets cannot be used in densely populated areas because they cannot be precisely targeted, and as such they are inherently indiscriminate.

"Our researchers were on the ground in Tskhinvali as early as 12 August.

"And we gained evidence and witness testimony of Grad rocket attacks and tank attacks on apartment buildings, including tank attacks that shot at the basement level.

"And basements are typically areas where civilians will hide for their own protection.

"So all of this points to the misuse, the inappropriate use of force by Georgia against civilian targets," according to Alison Gill.

Human Rights Watch will talk only of the "possible" deliberate targeting by Georgian forces of individual civilians, a still more serious charge, though some Ossetians the BBC spoke to in Tskhinvali claim to have witnessed such cases.

Wreckage

Marina Kochieva, a doctor at Tskhinvali's main hospital, says she herself was targeted by a Georgian tank as she and three relatives were trying to escape by car from the town on the night of 9 August.

She says the tank fired on her car and two other vehicles, forcing them to crash into a ditch.

The firing continued as she and her companions lay on the ground.

She showed the BBC the burnt-out wreckage of the car on the town's ring-road, riddled with bullet holes and with a much larger hole, apparently from a tank round, in the front passenger door.

Ms Kochieva says a nurse from her hospital was killed while fleeing Tskhinvali in similar circumstances.

She says she counted 18 burnt-out cars on the ring-road on 13 August, at the end of the war, suggesting there may have been more casualties.

Asked if, at night, Georgian soldiers might not have suspected her car of carrying Ossetian fighters, Ms Kochieva said: "Fighters wouldn't have gone away from town, they would have gone towards town. We were escaping like other refugees.

"The Georgians knew this was the 'Road of Life' for Ossetians. They were sitting here waiting to kill us," she said.

And this is the evil regime that both McBama twins rushed to support and over which they are willing to start World War III with Russia.

Meanwhile Joe Biden personally pushed to give $1 Billion U.S. tax dollars to the poor innocent "democracy" of Mikhail Saakashvili.

Interested in war crimes D.? Though Georgia may have committed war crimes we do know that Russia has committed war crimes in Chechnya.

Care to address Russia's crimes?

Atrocities in Chechnya

Since the beginning of the conflict, Russian forces have indiscriminately and disproportionately bombed and shelled civilian objects, causing heavy civilian casualties. The Russian forces have ignored their Geneva convention obligations to focus their attacks on combatants, and appear to take few safeguards to protect civilians: It is this carpet-bombing campaign which has been responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths in the conflict in Chechnya. The Russian forces have used powerful surface-to surface rockets on numerous occasions, causing death tolls in the hundreds in the Central Market bombing in Grozny and in many smaller towns and villages. Lately, Russian commanders have threatened to use even more powerful explosives, including fuel air explosives which could have a disastrous casualty count if used against civilian targets. The bombing campaign has turned many parts of Chechnya to a wasteland: even the most experienced war reporters I have spoken to told me they have never seen anything in their careers like the destruction of the capital Grozny.

Russian forces have often refused to create safe corridors to allow civilians to leave areas of active fighting, trapping civilians behind front lines for months. The haggard men and women who came out of Grozny after a perilous journey told me of living for months in dark, cold cellars with no water, gas or electricity and limited food: their little children were often in shock, whimpering in the corners of their tents in Ingushetia and screaming in fright whenever Russian war planes flew over, reminding them of the terror in Grozny.

Men especially face grave difficulties when attempting to flee areas of fighting: they are subjected to verbal taunting, extortion, theft, beatings, and arbitrary arrest. On several occasions, refugee convoys have come under intense bombardment by Russian forces, causing heavy casualties. Currently, tens of thousands of civilians remain trapped in the Argun river gorge in Southern Chechnya, stuck behind Russian lines without a way out from the constant bombardment and rapidly running out of food supplies.

For many Chechens, the constant bombardment was only the beginning of the horror. Once they came into contact with Russian forces, they faced even greater dangers. Human Rights Watch has now documented three large-scale massacres by Russian forces in Chechnya. In December, Russian troops killed seventeen civilians in the village of Alkhan-Yurt while going on a looting spree, burning many of the remaining homes and raping several women. We have documented at least fifty murders, mostly of older men and women, by Russian soldiers in the Staropromyslovski district of Grozny since Russian forces took control of that district: innocent civilians shot to death in their homes and their yards. In one case, three generations of the Zubayev family were shot to death in the yard of their home.

War Crimes In Chechnya and the Response of the West (Human Rights Watch, 1-3-2000)

Originally Posted by Bourne

Interested in war crimes D.? Though Georgia may have committed war crimes we do know that Russia has committed war crimes in Chechnya.

Care to address Russia's crimes?

Oh, the old deflection and distraction routine, really think its going to work?

Originally Posted by Defensor

Oh, the old deflection and distraction routine, really think its going to work?

Deflection and distraction? No, I'm pointing out your obvious bias. You focus on speculation that Georgia may have committed war crimes but you ignore Russia's proven war crimes in Chechnya. Why is that? Why do you ignore what Russia has done in favor of what Georgia might have done? If you're so upset about war crimes why aren't you addressing Russia's (Putin's) record of committing war crimes?

Originally Posted by Bourne

Deflection and distraction? No, I'm pointing out your obvious bias. You focus on speculation that Georgia may have committed war crimes but you ignore Russia's proven war crimes in Chechnya. Why is that? Why do you ignore what Russia has done in favor of what Georgia might have done? If you're so upset about war crimes why aren't you addressing Russia's (Putin's) record of committing war crimes?

And why would I be discussing old Russian crimes in Chechnya in a thread about recent and relevant war crimes committed in Georgia?

Should I also mention Stalin's war crimes, maybe even go back to the tsars, obviously that is all so relevant too? :sarcasm:

Originally Posted by Defensor

And why would I be discussing old Russian crimes in Chechnya in a thread about recent and relevant war crimes committed in Georgia?

Because you are demonstrating an obvious double standard. It's apparently acceptable for you to castigate Georgia's "alledged" war crimes while ignoring Russia's proven war crimes.

Originally Posted by Defensor

Should I also mention Stalin's war crimes, maybe even go back to the tsars, obviously that is all so relevant too? :sarcasm:

Too true. Yes, mention them.

Originally Posted by Defensor

Oh, the old deflection and distraction routine, really think its going to work?

Sure. It showed you lack of objectivity.

Originally Posted by Defensor

Oh, the old deflection and distraction routine, really think its going to work?

Yep, for the next 8 years it'll be all Bush's fault. Fair is fair, Clinton is off the hook.

Note to TFM: Effective 1-20-09 we need to change rule #1.

Originally Posted by Bourne

Because you are demonstrating an obvious double standard. It's apparently acceptable for you to castigate Georgia's "alledged" war crimes while ignoring Russia's proven war crimes.



Too true. Yes, mention them.

In case you did not notice, this is not a "History of War Crimes" thread. There is a history forum, go start that thread if that is what you wish to discuss.

It is highly disgraceful and insulting to the victims for you to try to prevent people from discussing the brutal war crimes committed by the evil regime of Mikhail Saakashvili. Kindly stick to the topic in this thread.

Originally Posted by Think for myself

Sure. It showed you lack of objectivity.

Cf. above response to Bourne.