Thread: Down to the Wire

Hey, Tony here. I'm new to the forum so forgive me if I'm not caught up on all the issues. I'm an independent. I'm from a liberal state (New York) but all my family and friends are conservative Christians. I've been going back and forth with my vote for a while. I'm currently studying abroad in Europe and have to send my absentee ballot out soon. If you allow me, I'd like to tell you where I stand on certain issues and am eager to hear arguments on why I should vote a certain way.

1. I'm a social conservative. I'm pro life and believe life starts at conception. I don't think any of us is in a place to make a decision on whether a baby should live or not. I recognize abortion in some exceptions (rape, danger to the mother or child, etc) but am pretty resolute on this. I'm also against same-sex marriage. I realize it's a state issue and that's okay with me. Honestly, I have gay friends and it doesn't bother me. I just believe marriage is a sacred institution. I'm not crazy about civil unions and/or children being brought up by a gay couple either. I'm no bigot, these are just values instilled in me from my Christian upbringing.

2. Economy - I'm beginning to lose faith in the free market. I majored in economics as an undergrad and really thought that the market should be let alone to do its own work. Looking at the times now, maybe I was wrong. I need to be educated more about the issues. Heavy regulation troubles me as well - I think it'll lead to corruption and probably government sponsored golden parachutes and the like. We think our politicians are corrupt now? Imagine if they have the power to change the banking system in their hands - imagine the stuff that will be offered to them then in exchange for a congressional vote.

3. Health Care - I'm not entirely sold on the fact that Health Care is a right. It's not in the constitution. That being said, I think it'd be great if everyone could have heath care. I'm afraid though that a public system would lead to a lesser quality of health care for everyone. Many Canadians come to the states for health care in order to avoid the wait and poor quality back home.

4. Taxes - Tax raises for the rich and tax cuts for the poor sound great. But does it really work out that great? I mean, a small business owner who is trying to expand is going to be highly burdened by taxes. Many people who make over 250K a year are not really rich. They're hard working guys like law firm associates who have to pay for their kid's education, their house, and everything else like other Americans. Burdening them with tax I feel is unjust. They have little left over as it is. I think Obama needs a new definition of rich. As for McCain, tax cuts for everyone doesnt seem possible. We're deep enough in debt as it is, so I don't get it. He does, however, say he is going to cut spending while Obama seems like he's going to increase. I'm not sure on this.

5. Personality - I like Obama. He's amazingly smart, eloquent and it seems he takes steady approaches to things and doesnt rush into judgment. I don't like how he broke the campaign public finance promise he made with McCain. I also don't enjoy that he sidesteps many questions. As for McCain, I like that he directly answers questions. I don't like some of the smear campaign he's been running. I also hate his VP choice. Something like that was way too political and shows that Country First is just a slogan. I do admire him and really do think of him as a "maverick" in certain issue.

So what am I going to vote? Man, I really wish I could just go Blue on this one. I love Obama's energy but I have serious reservations. I like McCain's style as well, but he's old, his VP sucks, and I'm afraid of falling into the trap of always voting for the social conservative no matter how good the other candidate is.

Would love to hear your suggestions/arguments.

All I can tell you is going to sound really kitschy. Vote from your heart. I truly respect your outlook and you've obviously given this a lot of thought -- far more than most people -- and that is worth considerable respect right there. You might consider voting independent if you're truly torn over the issues, but at the end of the day this is a really tough sell this time around -- for all of us. I know it sounds wishy washy, but the fact that you're voting at all is very important.

I found a lot of strength in this video -- reminds me of my democratic duty (not the party, the idea that we are democratic citizens) and the importance of my voice. Check it out, hope it helps.

YouTube - Flobots Rock the Vote PSA

Originally Posted by Legerdemain

Hey, Tony here. I'm new to the forum so forgive me if I'm not caught up on all the issues. I'm an independent. I'm from a liberal state (New York) but all my family and friends are conservative Christians. I've been going back and forth with my vote for a while. I'm currently studying abroad in Europe and have to send my absentee ballot out soon. If you allow me, I'd like to tell you where I stand on certain issues and am eager to hear arguments on why I should vote a certain way.

1. I'm a social conservative. I'm pro life and believe life starts at conception. I don't think any of us is in a place to make a decision on whether a baby should live or not. I recognize abortion in some exceptions (rape, danger to the mother or child, etc) but am pretty resolute on this. I'm also against same-sex marriage. I realize it's a state issue and that's okay with me. Honestly, I have gay friends and it doesn't bother me. I just believe marriage is a sacred institution. I'm not crazy about civil unions and/or children being brought up by a gay couple either. I'm no bigot, these are just values instilled in me from my Christian upbringing.

2. Economy - I'm beginning to lose faith in the free market. I majored in economics as an undergrad and really thought that the market should be let alone to do its own work. Looking at the times now, maybe I was wrong. I need to be educated more about the issues. Heavy regulation troubles me as well - I think it'll lead to corruption and probably government sponsored golden parachutes and the like. We think our politicians are corrupt now? Imagine if they have the power to change the banking system in their hands - imagine the stuff that will be offered to them then in exchange for a congressional vote.

3. Health Care - I'm not entirely sold on the fact that Health Care is a right. It's not in the constitution. That being said, I think it'd be great if everyone could have heath care. I'm afraid though that a public system would lead to a lesser quality of health care for everyone. Many Canadians come to the states for health care in order to avoid the wait and poor quality back home.

4. Taxes - Tax raises for the rich and tax cuts for the poor sound great. But does it really work out that great? I mean, a small business owner who is trying to expand is going to be highly burdened by taxes. Many people who make over 250K a year are not really rich. They're hard working guys like law firm associates who have to pay for their kid's education, their house, and everything else like other Americans. Burdening them with tax I feel is unjust. They have little left over as it is. I think Obama needs a new definition of rich. As for McCain, tax cuts for everyone doesnt seem possible. We're deep enough in debt as it is, so I don't get it. He does, however, say he is going to cut spending while Obama seems like he's going to increase. I'm not sure on this.

5. Personality - I like Obama. He's amazingly smart, eloquent and it seems he takes steady approaches to things and doesnt rush into judgment. I don't like how he broke the campaign public finance promise he made with McCain. I also don't enjoy that he sidesteps many questions. As for McCain, I like that he directly answers questions. I don't like some of the smear campaign he's been running. I also hate his VP choice. Something like that was way too political and shows that Country First is just a slogan. I do admire him and really do think of him as a "maverick" in certain issue.

So what am I going to vote? Man, I really wish I could just go Blue on this one. I love Obama's energy but I have serious reservations. I like McCain's style as well, but he's old, his VP sucks, and I'm afraid of falling into the trap of always voting for the social conservative no matter how good the other candidate is.

Would love to hear your suggestions/arguments.

Best introduction ever! While I don't agree with all of your positions, judging from your post you are a welcome addition.

Isn't it amazing what two hundred million dollars can buy? An endless series of 'bot posts promoting a flaming socialist disaster area.

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/ele...down-wire.html

CertainKindofLight - Thanks for the reply. I'm actually really feeling patriotic about voting this year. It's surreal to be in Lucerne, Switzerland (snowing outside right now) but still to have a voice in the election and to feel so connected to it.

Think for Myself - Thanks a bunch! I'm ignorant in a bunch of issues, and I look forward to learning and contributing.

Freedom For All - I don't get it? I joined two political forums today for the first time ever: this one and Arguewitheveryone.com. I posted the same post because I want to hear varying viewpoints. Not a bot post - especially because I'm not trying to sway anyone in any certain direction.

Looking forward to more replies. It may be silly to still try to find an argument to sway my vote this late in the election, but I'm pretty torn. I like the one guy more, but I'm too connected to some of my conservative feelings.

A good way to familiarize yourself with issues is to do research. It's not the greatest idea to get advice about politics from a message board. You'll get crazy responses from both sides.

Thanks. Will do, and have been. I've almost been looking for a white knight to swoop in and tell me why I needn't worry about my social conservative issues when it comes to Obama or, alternatively, why I needn't be worried about the possibility of a President Palin.

When it comes down to it, my issue with Obama is with his stance on abortion and gay marriage. Also, his history of voting "present" and changing his position on public financing discourages me. My issue with McCain is that he put politics over country, at least it seems, in choosing Governor Palin. I worry that she may become POTUS. I'm also attracted to the energy and freshness that Obama offers. It's hard to reconcile the competing interests. Basically, Republicans need fresh blood, in my opinion. And maybe a rethinking of economic policy...maybe.

Welcome to the forum. I read everyday but post pretty infrequently. As a Catholic, I am personally opposed to abortion as well, but the government that has the right to tell anyone what they can and can not do with their own body is one that has way too much control over our personal lives and decisions for me. I am also opposed to the death penalty with which many anti-abortionists seem to ignore. Same sex marriage; I have mixed feelings about. Marriage is a religious covenant between two people, one male and one female. Does the state have any role, probably not, but they do get a fee from registering marriage licenses so why not tax same sex couples the same way they tax hetero couples. Committed loving partners no matter what formulation deserve the ability to visit their partner in the hospital and inherit on the passing of their loved one. Civil Unions seem the way to go to me.

The Economy, capitalism and well regulated free markets seem the best answer. We have cut way back and regulation and its enforcement over the last two decades and we are paying for it now. Deregulation led to unmitigated greed and we are paying for it now.

Healthcare- As someone with employer paid for health insurance and having served on a study comittee because of double digit price increases, we are already paying for the uninsured with higher healthcare costs passed onto those with health insurance to cover those who don't have it. Some drastic change is needed, but a single payer(government run system) has not been sold to us yet, but with employers paying as much as they are right now; it won;t be long until business asks for one wo they don;t have to worry about it anymore.

Taxes are the price we pay for civilization. Obama is only asking to go back to the rates the upper bracket paid under the Clinton Administration. I believe they did alright then and we are trying to pay for two wars and the financial bail out; the government needs that money. Maybe we should all have been asked to sacrifice by someone, anyone after 9/11; instead of being told to go shopping. The next President, no matter who it is, needs to lay this out better for us as a nation.

Personality, I am not overly concerned about whether I like the President or not or whether I want to sit down and have a beer with him/her. I want someone smart enough to think through issues and ask a variety of people for their considered input and then make a good decision.

All that said, I have already voted. Obama got my vote; as a Navy veteran it was hard to vote for someone other than McCain, but he is not the McCain I would have noted for in 2000; he moved to far to the right for me and his pick of Palin scares the hell out of me. Good Luck and Vote, no matter who you vote for.

Hi Legerdemain, welcome to the forum! So, what's up in Luzern? Mom's from the old country, she hails from Bern. Sisters in Emmenthal, Graubunden, and Lausanne. I like Lugano personally, nice outdoor jazz festival there every year. Don't like Zurich very much anymore, too many guys smoochin' along the Limmat, know what I mean?

Hey well, suggestions for voting - I'm a.... constitutionalist, I suppose you could say. Old school conservative, partly libertarian, and guardedly liberal at times. I'm probably in the "they hijacked my party" crowd (relative to the Republicans, that is).

So, my take is, I want the Neo-Scummy-Cons gone NOW, by whatever means necessary, and yesterday wouldn't be soon enough.

Unfortunately, that looks like it means Obama will be getting my vote this time around. I'd rather vote for Chuck Baldwin, but he's not on the ballot in my state. I WOULD have voted for Ron Paul, but he decided not to run.

My take on Obama, as you say, he's a smart man. As usual (probably), it's not the Prez we really have to worry about, it's all his MINIONS, most of whom are political appointees (read: cronies), and most of whom get "lobbied heavily" (read: they serve someone OTHER THAN We the People).

I will absolutely NOT vote Republican this time, under ANY circumstances, because if ANY Republican gets in, they're going to drag the entire Neo-Scumbag party apparatus along with them, and that is no longer acceptable. Those idiots are completely bankrupt, in every way that matters (morally, mostly). Not to mention drop-dead clueless and incompetent.

I want the ship to come to port for repairs. If Obama becomes anything more than a caretaker, I'm gonna HOPE it's because he's rising to the occasion, and filling in those big shoes.

Um... social issues - don't care. AT ALL. Not in the least. Take 'em, leave 'em, just DON'T CARE. I consider, that politics in America, should be about the business of RUNNING THE COUNTRY, and that's ALL.

That principle, is called LIMITED government, and that's what we're supposed to have.

Government has NO BUSINESS stickin' its nose in my business, except when I pose a clear and present danger to We the People. And, for the purposes of territorial defense and a few other things, they can tax me and impress my services and take my land for public use, but for that, I get MY RIGHTS PROTECTED. That's the bargain. Or I should say, the CONTRACT, in the form of the Constitution of the United States.

So, if one those brain-dead weasels... er... politicians.... gets the idea that they're supposed to act in their OWN behalf, or in someone ELSE's behalf, instead of in MY behalf and OUR behalf, then I got a big problem with that.

Other than that, I really don't care about "much" - when it comes to the issues, the things that matter to me, are those that relate to NATIONAL SECURITY. So, the economy for instance, very MUCH relates to national security. (We're talkin' at the level of the "federal" government, right?) And, similarly, disaster management, foreign policy, investment and education policy - all these things, touch upon national security somehow.

Healthcare.... meh.... dubious. It's DUBIOUS whether that should really be in the purview of the federal government. (Especially since it's not listed in Article I Section 8, but then again, most things aren't). That is PERSONAL welfare, not the COLLECTIVE welfare. The government's job is not to look after me PERSONALLY - in fact I'd rather appreciate it if they didn't! The government's job is ONLY to do the very FEW things that the States really can't do by themselves - and in that light, I will CONSIDER, that healthcare may fall into the federal purview for PRACTICAL reasons, in much the same way that disaster recovery does - 'cause, why have each of the 50 states replicate all that bureaucracy 50 times? Nah, it makes sense to have it ONCE, and then oversight the hell out of it to make sure it's ALWAYS ready.

The only thing I really REALLY care about in politics, is that my elected representatives adhere to the Constitution. If they do that, then I don't have any problems with 'em.

Bushie, on the other hand, has NINE Constitutional violations SO FAR, and his term isn't even over yet! And, what's worse - he DOESN'T CARE!!! He's laughing in my face RIGHT NOW just 'cause I'm bringing up the subject in a public forum. He's the mother of all scumbags, that one - he thinks he's BETTER THAN ME, and that's a bozo f'in no-no in American politics.

That clown goes NOW. No pity, and no excuses. And I'd like to see the bastid brought up on charges the micro-second he leaves office. I want that man AND his weasels held accountable. I want them made an EXAMPLE of, so that kinda crap NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN in the United States of America.

And THAT, will be one of my acid tests for the Obama administration. If they fail on that one, then they aren't worth the ink on a dollar bill.

And the only reason they WOULDN'T do it, is if they THEMSELVES are just as guilty as Bushie is!!!

'Kay pal - well, I hope you enjoy this forum, and, nice to make your acquaintance, and I look forward to dialoguing with you.

Originally Posted by Formative Years

A good way to familiarize yourself with issues is to do research. It's not the greatest idea to get advice about politics from a message board. You'll get crazy responses from both sides.

Except from me. I am always right.