Thread: America’s Path to Socialism and the Problems with Socialism

I hate to say this but I am close to convinced that there is no stopping America’s transition to Socialism. I will continue to argue against it and vote against it, but too many today are pushing towards it. The choices we have in the two main presidential candidates have further convinced me of this transition.

America initially began to become the leader and innovator on how to run a government. Many European countries attempted to follow suit and instituted their own democracies. They removed the power of their monarchies (although they still kept many of them for “show”) and progressed to a more democratic type of government. These actions were what I would consider a good progression because they were in the right direction in giving more freedoms to individuals. Today, many in America are looking to the Socialist countries and consider movement towards Socialism as “progressive”; although, in reality it is regressive when we consider where America started. Are we just confused because it was “progression” for European countries? Perhaps, although I think there is much more to it than that.

I also understand that there is much more to Socialism than what I will discuss here; however, I would like to focus on the free market aspect of Socialism, since it tends to have the most negative effect on this area.

Imagine for a moment that the free market system is like a large giant with the capability to accomplish much work and growth. Unrestrained, the giant can also create much destruction. So, America initially placed a long rope to give the giant enough freedom to accomplish work. Gradually, the American government has continued to shorten this rope and this has not necessarily been a bad thing to a degree. The problem is that now the balance of how long to make the rope is lost and the shortening of the rope because “the free market needs more controls” has become similar to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

What I mean by this is that those who ask for more controls are also saying the free market can not function on its own and needs help, while they continually make it difficult for the free market to accomplish work by shortening the rope. It is almost like a trainer prodding an elephant to reach all the peanuts or hay when the trainer does not allow enough rope/chain to do so. As the elephant becomes hysterical and attempts are made to break the chain to reach the food, the trainer will say, “What is wrong with you? Why are you acting this way? There must be something wrong with the elephant and it needs more of my control. I’m going to shorten its chain so I can watch it more closely.” Eventually, the elephant will die and the trainer will ironically say “See, it needed my help all along and it just became too frantic”. At this point, when the government has restrained the free market to the point of failure, is when we will hand more over to the government to control and the rope will become even shorter. It is already happening to some degree, gradually so that not as many notice until it is too late.

Now imagine that the giant is actually made up of all those individuals that are in the market, the small businesses, the investors, large corporations, etc. and each of these individuals has a similar rope that keeps shortening. As the balance between being able to accomplish enough to be profitable with the short rope shifts towards unprofitability, each individual will begin to see other options. Some will say “The government is giving out ‘free’ pay with no effort and I can not seem to make ends meet” and they decide to get out of the market and go on welfare. Others will say “I can do fine just working for the group at the end of this rope” and will get a job working for the government. What this also does is put more strain on those still making efforts against the short rope and intensifies the problem, since less individuals per capita are working in the free market and more individuals go on government support or work for the government which have to be paid by increased taxes.

Eventually, as more and more continue to rely on either “free” support from the government or a paycheck from the government, the “free market” will be “morphed” into a much larger, monopolized, and more destructive giant with little or no restraint: the government.

Great post except... what's the link between socialism and a free market? They're 2 absolutely independant concepts. Socialism is about social justice. You're mistaking socialism and communism (which is incompatible with a free market). Replace "socialism" with "communism" in your post and it will make sense.

Originally Posted by Kyryahn

Great post except... what's the link between socialism and a free market? They're 2 absolutely independant concepts. Socialism is about social justice. You're mistaking socialism and communism (which is incompatible with a free market). Replace "socialism" with "communism" in your post and it will make sense.

You mean socialism is about creating social injustice by destroying the free market?

Originally Posted by Defensor

You mean socialism is about creating social injustice by destroying the free market?

No, but you can keep on altering my words to suit your arguments, for all I care.
But ok, let's have some fun... go on, explain to me how socialism leads to the destruction of the free market.

Originally Posted by Kyryahn

No, but you can keep on altering my words to suit your arguments, for all I care.
But ok, let's have some fun... go on, explain to me how socialism leads to the destruction of the free market.

Wow, this is really difficult, how could a centrally planned economy possibly be different from a free market economy? :sarcasm:

Originally Posted by Defensor

Wow, this is really difficult, how could a centrally planned economy possibly be different from a free market economy? :sarcasm:

I didn't ask you about communism, but about socialism.

Originally Posted by Kyryahn

No, but you can keep on altering my words to suit your arguments, for all I care.
But ok, let's have some fun... go on, explain to me how socialism leads to the destruction of the free market.

Socialism is based on the phrase:

To steal from those that have it to use it to buy votes from the poor to keep political power.

All government philosophies based on the premise of theft destroy all forms of freedom.

Originally Posted by Kyryahn

I didn't ask you about communism, but about socialism.

Socialism is a centrally planned economy. Communism is a utopic state that has never and will not ever exist. :whistling:

Originally Posted by Defensor

Socialism is a centrally planned economy.

It's not, you might want to take some political courses.
Socialism as applied in Europe is called "social democracy", and has nothing in common with marxism. It's a CAPITALISTIC form of society.
Social-démocratie - Wikipédia
(it's in french)
For you, are the UK, France, Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, Norvege, Italy, Spain... socialist countries? If not, what are they according to you?
And for you, do those countries have a centrally planned economy where the means of productions belong to everyone, or a free market capitalistic economy?

Originally Posted by Defensor

Communism is a utopic state that has never and will not ever exist. :whistling:

Yup. Pretty much like libertarianism.

Originally Posted by Kyryahn

It's not, you might want to take some political courses.
Socialism as applied in Europe is called "social democracy", and has nothing in common with marxism. It's a CAPITALISTIC form of society.
Social-démocratie - Wikipédia
(it's in french)
For you, are the UK, France, Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, Norvege, Italy, Spain... socialist countries? If not, what are they according to you?
And for you, do those countries have a centrally planned economy where the means of productions belong to everyone, or a free market capitalistic economy?

Yup. Pretty much like libertarianism.

Can't be a capitalist form of society. The business owners aren't permitted to control their own businesses.

Libertarianism presumes business owners will provide those benefits to it's employees they wish to provide, and not provide those that don't serve it's purpose.

Socialism commands people. Just like Stalin.