Thread: Divisive Politics is killing the United States.

Originally Posted by Burning Giraffe

We talk about government corruption, bloated bureaucracies, unsavory tax codes, and globalist foreign policies that entangle the US in matters that are simply not in our interest and which are none of our business. But the people don't understand it this way.

The Real Problem:

Talk about the corruption of Wiliam Jefferson. The Democrats will try to shift to "Dan Abrams" and refuse to admit that he's scum and should go. Never mind the frozen account he kept for himself in his own freezer.

Talk about the corruption of Dan Abrams. The Republicans will try to shift the discussion to William Jefferson and refuse to admit that those people associated with him should be probed and ejected if found rotten.

The Democrats insisted Nixon had to go. For what? For asking that some people do what was commonly done in the sixties, eavesdrop on the opponent, and for the subsequent abuses of power. Some Republicans to this day can't accept that.

The Republicans insisted Clinton had to go. For what? Perjury. The Democrats have made all sorts of excuses for this, but the perjury happened, it was a legitimate deposition, and perjury is a felony. And Clinton grossly abused the powers of his office to stay in power. This is recent enough that most of the Democrats on this board are going to be unhappy that someone would accurately depict that episode.

I've only run across a couple of shills who were obviously paid by someone to post their remarks. But this board, which is typical, is full of posters who regurgitate the party line without shame or thought of meaning.

We're not an "Obama Nation", we're not an "Ipod Nation", we're the "Terry Schiavo Nation". And someday someone's going to pull the plug.

And we won't notice.

Originally Posted by Burning Giraffe

I think what we need to do is to shift the way we communicate our own agenda, that is, if we ever want to move forward beyond clearly communicating our own values and their virtues.

I think the way to do this is to evaluate each bill, policy, and proposal according to its efficiency and efficacy. Force the government to take responsibility for the economic and structural successes and failures of their legislation. This would encourage public interest in the intricacies of national politics and make people more willing to stomach the minutia within. If people could be encouraged to think this way, we'd have a better shot at realizing our goals by walking people down the road step by step, instead of proposing seemingly dramatic reforms we both know have no shot of ever taking place.

Well, that's where you're grand idea collapses. "Force the government"? When we can't get our own neighbors on the Internet to calmly discuss the philosophical basis behind their rote utterings? When they're tools of discussion are textbook examples of Orwell's "Politics and the English Language"? When they don't even know what their philosophical bases are?

We can't influence the government until we get large numbers of people awake, and we can't wake them up because they're warm and comfortable in their dead ideologies and they simply refuse to leave the dream their in.

If you can find a copy, read CM Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons". It's been anthologized any number of times, and it was reprinted in the April or May edition of Omni magazine in 1980 (don't ask how I remember that). That's the alternative facing us if we manage to miss Orwell's boot stamping on a human face forever.

If you do not see effective leadership. Then perhaps you should look for people in your community to run for office. It may come down to we the people starting grassroot efforts to elect independent representation. In the frontier past of this country it wasn't unheard of people who hadn't even asked to be a candidate for office to be nominated and put on ballot to run. I am not saying that necessarily this makes them great leaders but usually the ones who where basically drafted by their community to represent them must have exhibited the traits that community felt would best represent them. Hillary Clinton went to New York and ran for senator and how is that representative of the constituency there again? I believe senators and congressmen should come from their district. They need to have worked there lived there and actually known their constituency's concerns. That is what I'm talking about as well. Then first order of business by both parties spread their it's us against them rhetoric that gets nothing accomplished. Further where is the bi-partisan effort within congress now? It doesn't exist. They are too busy both parties fighting each other and dragging each other through the press. The congress is just as bloody and messed up right now as Obama and Clinton.

I know I have made statements many of you do not like. Yet I have made some statements and points that should be thought about.

Mandate legislation must go.
Government should keep the constituency in the loop.
We should have annual reports on expenditures by the government.
Legislation that effects our freedom and liberty should be discussed with us here at home before they start making legislation that threatens our very liberty. (Homeland Security Act)

Those are a few examples. Senators rarely go back to their constituency and discuss wide spread sweeping changes to constitutional rights. I find that deplorable. While we are divided they get to run it all. Think about these points.

Originally Posted by deepthought

...

Those are a few examples. Senators rarely go back to their constituency and discuss wide spread sweeping changes to constitutional rights. I find that deplorable. While we are divided they get to run it all. Think about these points.

I'm hesitant to lay all the blame on that on the elected reps. These issues requires people to pay attention, learn a little about thier government, how it works and whats going on. That's a lot of details. We the people, or too many of us anyway, like their beliefs to fit on a bumper sticker.

Originally Posted by 2lane

I'm hesitant to lay all the blame on that on the elected reps. These issues requires people to pay attention, learn a little about thier government, how it works and whats going on. That's a lot of details. We the people, or too many of us anyway, like their beliefs to fit on a bumper sticker.

Not this American and I believe there are alot of people like me that want to hear about wide sweeping change legislation. We dont want to hear it from a 2 minute news bite. We want to hear it from our representatives. I do lay the blame at the feat of representatives who have either forgotten where they come from or are like Bill Frist, Hillary Clinton, and others who haven't even lived in the areas that they ran and won election for in over 20 to 29 years. Bill Frist had been a resident of Boston and Hillary in Arkansas. So how is Bill Frist able to best represent Tennessee and how is Hillary best able to represent New York. Sorry thats crap.

Originally Posted by deepthought

Not this American and I believe there are alot of people like me that want to hear about wide sweeping change legislation. We dont want to hear it from a 2 minute news bite. We want to hear it from our representatives. I do lay the blame at the feat of representatives who have either forgotten where they come from or are like Bill Frist, Hillary Clinton, and others who haven't even lived in the areas that they ran and won election for in over 20 to 29 years. Bill Frist had been a resident of Boston and Hillary in Arkansas. So how is Bill Frist able to best represent Tennessee and how is Hillary best able to represent New York. Sorry thats crap.

No that's the way it is. Take a cruise around the threads and ask yourself how many here are looking for information or reasoned discussion in order expand their point of view. Get back to me. As for people having lived in one place and being able to represent constituents in a different place, this is the Unided States, that is very reasonable to accept. I think you'd be surprise at the number of elected national reps who were not born in the state they are representing. A good example is Norm Coleman one of the senators from Minnesota, he's from New York, Al Franken his likely opponent, born and raised and educated (to a point) in Minnesota. Which one would you support? People move all the time. I don't have the statistics but a very large number of Americans die many, many miles away from where they were born. Very different than from the first half of the 20th century. It'll be interesting to see if we start becoming less mobile with energy costs being the way they are.

Originally Posted by 2lane

I'm hesitant to lay all the blame on that on the elected reps. These issues requires people to pay attention, learn a little about thier government, how it works and whats going on. That's a lot of details. We the people, or too many of us anyway, like their beliefs to fit on a bumper sticker.

This is a very true statement.

There's a good book about this, the dumbing down of democracy into WWF style pantomime.

But Al Gore wrote it and he's fat... so nobody will read it.

Originally Posted by 2lane

No that's the way it is. Take a cruise around the threads and ask yourself how many here are looking for information or reasoned discussion in order expand their point of view. Get back to me. As for people having lived in one place and being able to represent constituents in a different place, this is the Unided States, that is very reasonable to accept. I think you'd be surprise at the number of elected national reps who were not born in the state they are representing. A good example is Norm Coleman one of the senators from Minnesota, he's from New York, Al Franken his likely opponent, born and raised and educated (to a point) in Minnesota. Which one would you support? People move all the time. I don't have the statistics but a very large number of Americans die many, many miles away from where they were born. Very different than from the first half of the 20th century. It'll be interesting to see if we start becoming less mobile with energy costs being the way they are.

The point of representation is picking someone who has lived among us. Worked along side us. People who know what we are going through and who understand what it is to live in our districts. Strangers from another district wouldn't understand our struggles and day to day desires. I think some of it is from the fact that it's star appeal for lack of a better term. People voted for Hillary because they where thinking of Bill Clinton when they voted. I doubt any of them where considering that Bill would have nothing to say in Hillary's office.

I want people that I know to represent me not some distant stranger who figured they where famous enough to beat the local boys. Thats how I feel. Further I want a common man or woman someone who is honest and has no guile. They should only have a desire to serve their community. If I could find people like this I would encourage them to run and I definately would support them as much as I could.

Originally Posted by deepthought

The point of representation is picking someone who has lived among us. Worked along side us. People who know what we are going through and who understand what it is to live in our districts. Strangers from another district wouldn't understand our struggles and day to day desires. I think some of it is from the fact that it's star appeal for lack of a better term. People voted for Hillary because they where thinking of Bill Clinton when they voted. I doubt any of them where considering that Bill would have nothing to say in Hillary's office.

I want people that I know to represent me not some distant stranger who figured they where famous enough to beat the local boys. Thats how I feel. Further I want a common man or woman someone who is honest and has no guile. They should only have a desire to serve their community. If I could find people like this I would encourage them to run and I definately would support them as much as I could.

You mean the people of New York should have elected a long-term New York resident who actually cared about the state instead of a some carpet baggin' ho who sought only a stepping stone back into the White House?

Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles

There's a good book about this, the dumbing down of democracy into WWF style pantomime.

But Al Gore wrote it and he's fat... so nobody will read it.

Then watch Idiocracy. That pretty much sums it up.