Thread: So...what's actually going on in Iraq

Between the media dis-information, and conflicting reports, and missing stories....what's actually going on there?

Hmm, well, to put it simply, IT SUCKS. No jobs, not enough running water, little electricity, 130 degrees in the shade, hardly any hospitals functional, same for schools, but most people seem to not send their kids to school due to the dangerous roads. Theres a blog called Baghdad Burning by a girl over there, I guess thats a first hand account... Baghdad Burning
should be an eye-opener...

The media really does a poor job covering this war. Watching Meet The Press this morning, you have McCain and Kerry on there. One says we are doing good, the other says we are not.

Who the hell do you believe? Why should I believe a Republican politician vs. a Democrat politian? They both are crooked parties with their own agendas.

I honestly have no clue how well or not so well we are doing in Iraq.

My guess from the news I watch... certain things are better from the surge, but other things are worse. Maybe the violence in Baghdad is better, but the violence outside that city is up.

I was someone who previously believed a Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity that if we left, then the bad guys would just follow our troops home and attack us here. While I have no doubt of their evil intentions, I don't see that happening... yet. At the same time, if the bad guys really want to attack us right now, they'll do it whether or not we are in Iraq.

At the same time, I sure as hell don't want Iraq to become a bigger base for Iran and the terrorists. Maybe we can just patrol the borders?

Lots of contracts and money being giving to Haliburton.

Baghdad used to be majority Sunni, now its majority Shai, i guess when ethnic cleansing is complete, ethnic violence will reduce; but they still have a common enemy- the US occupying forces.

Not knowing what is going on in Iraq and not caring enough to try to find out is your typical murican attitude. If there was a god, which of course there isn't, you would burn in hell for the crimes your country has committed against humanity.

Lucky for you people, few will ever suffer the consequences of your country's actions in the M.E.

Have another beer and squeeze out another contented fart as you watch your favourite sitcom on your widescreen television set. Neer mind what you military has to do in foreign countries to sustain your gluttonous lifestyle.

Originally Posted by LieExposer

Not knowing what is going on in Iraq and not caring enough to try to find out is your typical murican attitude. If there was a god, which of course there isn't, you would burn in hell for the crimes your country has committed against humanity.

Lucky for you people, few will ever suffer the consequences of your country's actions in the M.E.

Have another beer and squeeze out another contented fart as you watch your favourite sitcom on your widescreen television set. Neer mind what you military has to do in foreign countries to sustain your gluttonous lifestyle.

lifes a bitch ain't it.
I don't see Canada doing anything about standing up to the US.
And last I checked, God set the rules by which we live. If He didn't set the rules, they wouldn't exist. Therefore, what we are doing is not against the will of God, but against the will of peace-mongerers.

Bear... I thought you were Canadian?

And did you just hint that someone doing evil is able to look at someone else and say 'well sure I did it, but you didn't STOP ME!' And claim it makes them moral equals.

Originally Posted by OneCandidatereviews

Hmm, well, to put it simply, IT SUCKS. No jobs, not enough running water, little electricity, 130 degrees in the shade, hardly any hospitals functional, same for schools, but most people seem to not send their kids to school due to the dangerous roads. Theres a blog called Baghdad Burning by a girl over there, I guess thats a first hand account... Baghdad Burning
should be an eye-opener...

Baghdad Burning is a very good source, her latest entry made me cry as so many have in the past.

This thread contains some links I posted that are of news reports that the nationalists are trying to unify Iraq. I'm not sure that the division our administration talks about is as strong as they say. I posted links to articles that provide a different perspective. http://www.politicalhotwire.com/1334...olution-4.html

Also this press release about a recent study is pretty interesting

Public release date: 6-Sep-2007

Contact: Diane Swanbrow
swanbrow@umich.edu
734-647-9069
University of Michigan

Secular, nationalist surge in Iraq continues, new survey shows ANN ARBOR, Mich.---With the Bush Administration's progress report on Iraq due by Sept. 15, a new survey of nationally representative samples of the Iraqi population shows a continuation of two trends that give some reason for optimism about the future of that battle-scarred country: A continued shift away from political Islam among Sunnis and Kurds and a shift toward Iraqi nationalism among majority Shiites.

Those are the key findings from a July 2007 survey of 7,732 Iraqis, the fifth in a series, according to Mansoor Moaddel, a sociology professor at Eastern Michigan University and a research affiliate at the University of Michigan Institute for Social Research (ISR).
Moaddel has been working with U-M colleagues and a private Iraqi research group, the Independent Institute for Administration and Civil Society Studies, on a series of face-to-face surveys of nationally representative samples of the Iraqi population. Previous surveys were conducted in December 2004, April and October 2006, and March 2007.

In the July survey, 53 percent of those interviewed identified themselves as Shiites, 26 percent as Sunnis, 16 percent as Kurds and 5 percent as Muslims. Those who identified themselves as Muslim only declined to claim identity with a specific Islamic sect.

A majority of the Sunnis (54 percent) and Kurds (65 percent) said that it was "very important" to have a government that makes law according to the people's wishes, while a much smaller percentage of the Shiites (34 percent) thought so. On the other hand, only a minority of the Sunnis (14 percent) and the Kurds (18 percent) said that it was "very important" to have a government that implements only the Shari'a (Islamic law). This percentage was higher among the Shiites (27 percent). In the country as a whole, 71 percent of Iraqis said that it was "very important" or "somewhat important" for the government to make laws according to the people's wishes, compared with 51 percent who said that the same about implementing the shari'a only.

"The Kurds and the Sunnis dislike religious regimes," said Moaddel, "while the Shiites have a problem with secular politics."

The Shiites were also the least likely to strongly agree that Iraq would be a better place if religion and politics were separated, the series of surveys shows. Specifically, 53 percent of the Sunnis, 68 percent of the Kurds, and 22 percent of the Shiites "strongly agreed" that Iraq would be a better place if religion and politics were separated, according to the July 2007 survey.

In terms of national identity, however, the Shiites were most likely to describe themselves as "Iraqis, above all" as opposed to Muslims, Arabs or Kurds above all. In the July survey, 71 percent of Shiites described themselves as Iraqis, above all, compared with 66 percent of those who self-identified only as Muslims, 57 percent of Sunnis and just 17 percent of Kurds.

Moaddel also found that the more education people had, the more secular and nationalistic their attitudes were likely to be. For example, 65 percent of those with university educations described themselves as Iraqis, above all, compared with 60 percent of those with elementary and high school educations, and 55 percent of those with no education.

The catch: only about 10 percent of Iraqis have a university education, according to Moaddel. "Iraqi culture was destroyed 10 years before the invasion," he said. "The harsh economic sanctions we imposed after the Persian Gulf War undermined Iraqi quality of life and quality of education, with money meant for food programs going into Saddam's coffers."

Moaddel's book, "Islamic Modernism, Nationalism, and Fundamentalism," a comparative historical analysis of ideological movements in the Islamic world from the mid-1800s to the present, was named co-winner of the 2007 Distinguished Book Award by the Sociology of Religion Section of the American Sociological Association. Born in Iran, Moaddel is a U.S. citizen who has lived in this country for 31 years.

The latest findings on Iraqi political attitudes provide reason for both optimism and gloom, according to Moaddel. "Whether U.S. forces should stay or remain is really the wrong question," he noted. "The real issue is whether the Iraqis prefer to identify themselves as Iraqis or as members of particular ethnic or religious sects."

"If religious sectarianism prevails, U.S. forces will not be able to establish security. The best we can hope to do is to prevent civil war."

But the trends toward secularism and nationalism revealed in the surveys suggest that religious parties are losing popular support and secular parties are gaining ground, according to Moaddel.

The paradox is whether the U.S. can effectively support this trend. "A nationalist identification emerges in response to foreign occupation," Moaddel said. "We can't directly support this trend, of course, or we will destroy it. But perhaps by getting rid of religious extremists, we can help to create an environment that will support Iraqi nationalism."

The growth in Iraqi national identity is particularly important given the situation in other Islamic countries, Moaddel said. In Morocco, 65 percent of the population in 2002 describes themselves as "Muslims, above all," the lowest figure among Arab countries after Iraq, he noted. This figure for Egypt in 2007 was approximately 84 percent, compared with 31 percent of Iraqis.

"Iraqi nationalism, if well-articulated, may not only save Iraq from disintegration but transcend sectarianism and sectarian politics," said Moaddel. "The recruits to the Iraqi army may gain the technical competence to use weapons, but it is a heartfelt commitment to a united Iraq that acts as a social cement to make these recruits capable of subduing sectarian warlords and foreign intrusion. Whether such an ideology will be formulated and whether Iraq will create its own Mustafa Kamil [a 19th century Egyptian nationalist] only the future can tell. What seems clear is that Iraqis are ready to convey the same feeling of nationalist sensibility about their country as Kamil articulated about Egypt under British occupation: 'To you my love and my heart. To you my life and my existence. To you my blood and my soul. To you my mind and my speech. . . . You, you, O… [Iraq] are life itself, and there is no life but in you.'"

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Full findings from the Iraqi surveys are available at Findings Of Mansoor Moaddel's Values Surveys In Islamic Countries

Established in 1948, the University of Michigan Institute for Social Research (ISR) is among the world's oldest academic survey research organizations, and a world leader in the development and application of social science methodology. ISR conducts some of the most widely-cited studies in the nation, including the Reuters/University of Michigan Surveys of Consumers, the American National Election Studies, the Monitoring the Future Study, the Panel Study of Income Dynamics, the Health and Retirement Study, and the National Survey of Black Americans. ISR researchers also collaborate with social scientists in more than 60 nations on the World Values Surveys and other projects, and the Institute has established formal ties with universities in Poland, China and South Africa. ISR is also home to the Inter-University Consortium for Political and Social Research (ICPSR), the world's largest computerized social science data archive. Visit the ISR web site at Institute for Social Research for more information.

Secular, nationalist surge in Iraq continues, new survey shows

Cholera Epidemic Infects 7,000 People in Iraq
By James Glanz and Denise Grady
The New York Times Wednesday 12 September 2007
Baghdad - A cholera epidemic in northern Iraq has infected approximately 7,000 people and could reach Baghdad within weeks as the disease spreads through the country's decrepit and unsanitary water system, Iraqi health officials said Tuesday.
The World Health Organization reported that the epidemic is concentrated in the northern regions of Kirkuk and Sulaimaniya and that 10 people are known to have died. But Dr. Said Hakki, president of the Iraqi Red Crescent Society, a relief organization that has responded to the epidemic, said that new cases had turned up in the neighboring provinces, Erbil and Nineveh, indicating that the disease had spread.
Most significant, Dr. Hakki said, were two cases in a village on the border between Kirkuk and Diyala Provinces, one involving a young girl. Baghdad is next to Diyala.
Because of that geographic spread, Dr. Hakki said, health officials at the Red Crescent estimate that cases will begin turning up in Baghdad in late September or early October, when temperatures are especially favorable for the growth of the bacteria Vibrio cholerae, which causes the disease by infecting the intestine.
Dr. Cerko Abdulla, chief of the Sulaimaniya health directorate, also said that the epidemic had begun spreading in adjacent provinces. "The water system represents the main problem," he said. "The disease can spread widely through water, and that's a very serious matter."
In Baghdad, Iraq's deputy health minister, Dr. Adel Mohsin, said that he was not aware of any cases on the Diyala border. But he said that further spread of the epidemic was "very likely" unless government agencies followed strict guidelines on water testing and maintaining sufficient levels of chlorination, which kills the bacteria.
In a chilling reminder of how difficult it may be to maintain those levels, Dr. Mohsin said that chlorine imports had been severely curtailed as a result of recent insurgent bombs that had been laced with chlorine, which in concentrated form can be deadly.
Dr. Hakki, of the Red Crescent, said that shallow wells contaminated by sewage around Sulaimaniya - which had at least two cholera outbreaks in the decades before the American-led invasion in 2003 - could have set off the epidemic. But problems that have developed since the invasion, like poor control of chlorination levels, have the potential to make this outbreak more dangerous, he said.
"If the water has low chlorination, Vibrio cholerae will go through the central supply," Dr. Hakki said, and the disease will spread "like a fire in a haystack."
Dr. Burhan Omar, deputy director of Kirkuk General Hospital, said that because of such problems, water purification plants themselves could be contaminated with the bacteria. Those plants, in turn, can "bring the disease from the northern parts to the middle and southern parts of Iraq."
In fact, if those plants are contaminated, the epidemic could hopscotch all the way to Basra, in the south, Dr. Omar said.
Cholera is caused by infection of the intestine with the bacteria Vibrio cholerae. The infection can be mild or even have no symptoms, but about one in 20 infected people become extremely ill, with profuse watery diarrhea, vomiting and leg cramps. Without treatment, rapid loss of body fluids causes dehydration and shock, and a person can die within hours.
Cholera does not usually spread directly from person to person, so casual contact with infected people is not risky, and quarantine is not necessary. But household members, who have closer contact, may contract it, and can sometimes avoid getting sick by taking the antibiotic tetracycline.
People contract cholera by drinking water or eating food contaminated with the bacteria, which comes from the feces of an infected person. Exposure to raw sewage and contaminated, untreated drinking water can cause epidemics. If treated water is not available, boiling will kill the bacteria. During epidemics, people need to avoid raw vegetables.
The major human displacement caused by the Iraq conflict - people being driven from their homes or simply choosing to leave - is likely to be driving the epidemic, officials say.
Fadela Chaib, a spokeswoman for the World Health Organization, said: "Frankly speaking, it's possible that cholera will spread to neighboring provinces and even to Baghdad, because there is a lot of people movement. People can be carrying the bacteria in their bodies and show no symptoms, and the bacteria can stay in the body for 7 to 14 days and be shed, potentially contaminating other individuals."
She said the health organization had sent two truckloads of medical supplies to Erbil, in the north, including oral rehydration salts and intravenous fluids. The group is also testing water samples for contamination and helping the local government to distribute pamphlets and posters urging people to wash their hands and purify their water by boiling it or adding chlorine tablets to kill the bacteria.
Although there are vaccines to prevent cholera, Ms. Chaib said they were "not efficient," and the health organization did not provide them or recommend them, preferring to emphasize hygiene, clean drinking water, sanitation and education.
Ms. Chaib said that health organization personnel were working in the north and that "it may be more easy for them to be in the north than in Baghdad, for example, because the situation in the north is more manageable than in the rest of the country."
Should cholera break out in Baghdad, it would be far more difficult to send in health workers and protect them.
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James Glanz reported from Baghdad, and Denise Grady from New York. Ali Hamdani contributed reporting from Baghdad, and employees of The New York Times from Kirkuk and Sulaimaniya.
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