Thread: "Public Option" a Trojan Horse for Single-Payer

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This has been their strategy all along. It isn't about bringing more choices to Americans.



It is all about eliminating all choices but the government's.

[quote name='SideTraKd' date='05 November 2009 - 02:53 AM' timestamp='1257407605' post='52519']



This has been their strategy all along. It isn't about bringing more choices to Americans.



It is all about eliminating all choices but the government's.

[/quote]



You give 'em way too much credit, SideTraKd. They're really not that smart.



Look here - "who pays" has NOTHING to do with your medical treatment. Those are two entirely separate issues!



Consider another government model - Medicare. There, your own doctor treats you. He sends the bill to Medicare. Medicare pays. Everyone's happy.



Medicare, is like the "single payer". It doesn't mean you don't have a choice. You still have a choice of seeing whatever doctor you want, and if he recommends a treatment that isn't covered by medicare, you have a choice about that too.



The "choice" issue in here, is more the doctor's problem than yours. Medicare is only going to pay him for "certain things", is his problem. And, he knows in advance, which things will be paid for, and which won't. It's no different from private insurance, private insurance works in exactly the same way.



The DIFFERENCE is, that his billing clerks don't have to go nuts translating the doctor's bill into 47 different insurance-code languages. There's ONE payer, the doctor writes out ONE bill, and that's all there is to it -



So, single payer, is actually a GOOD thing. That's what we want, I think. Single payer. The reason medical billing is so costly, is because there's not a single payer!

[quote name='nonsqtr' date='05 November 2009 - 03:06 AM' timestamp='1257408389' post='52522']

You give 'em way too much credit, SideTraKd. They're really not that smart.



Look here - "who pays" has NOTHING to do with your medical treatment. Those are two entirely separate issues!



Consider another government model - Medicare. There, your own doctor treats you. He sends the bill to Medicare. Medicare pays. Everyone's happy.



Medicare, is like the "single payer". It doesn't mean you don't have a choice. You still have a choice of seeing whatever doctor you want, and if he recommends a treatment that isn't covered by medicare, you have a choice about that too.



The "choice" issue in here, is more the doctor's problem than yours. Medicare is only going to pay him for "certain things", is his problem. And, he knows in advance, which things will be paid for, and which won't. It's no different from private insurance, private insurance works in exactly the same way.



The DIFFERENCE is, that his billing clerks don't have to go nuts translating the doctor's bill into 47 different insurance-code languages. There's ONE payer, the doctor writes out ONE bill, and that's all there is to it -



So, single payer, is actually a GOOD thing. That's what we want, I think. Single payer. The reason medical billing is so costly, is because there's not a single payer!

[/quote]



One of the bad things about Medicare/single payer, though, is that when they say they will pay up $250 for that ace bandage, they end up paying $250 for every ace bandage. There is a real racket going on there too!

[quote name='metheron' date='05 November 2009 - 03:10 AM' timestamp='1257408645' post='52524']

One of the bad things about Medicare/single payer, though, is that when they say they will pay up $250 for that ace bandage, they end up paying $250 for every ace bandage. There is a real racket going on there too!

[/quote]



You're suggesting there's areas where they overpay?



Mm... not so sure about that. They've whittled it down pretty good over the years!



Yes, you're right of course, that IS the way it works, if the doctor can prove he did a neurological exam then he'll get paid for a neurological exam, even if he only measured your skin resistance. That's called "fraud", though, I'm pretty sure...



And, another fraud, is when they bill Medicare for stuff they never actually did. That happens mostly with hospitals rather than outpatient visits, and a lot of is it honest mistakes, what happens is the doc'll tell the nurse some tests, the nurse will write 'em on the chart, and then the patient will complain loudly that no way is she gettin' into that MRI machine, so then they have to think on their feet and do somethin' quick, but somewhere on that chart it still says MRI and that's what the billing people bill for, they generally work right off the charts unless someone tells 'em otherwise. That's the hardest part of medical billing, is reading the doctor's scribble...



But these things are... um... how do we say this in capitalism? "Necessary evils"?



I mean, this is understood, right? In any kind of enforcement situation, there's going to be a few things that fall between the cracks. They only have enough enforcement resources to go after the Bernie Madoff's of the world, and anyone ripping off less than 50 billion dollars doesn't even make a blip on the radar screen. So, you get your enforcers online and they get your fraud level down to a very manageable 2%, and generally everyone's more-or-less happy with that.

[quote name='nonsqtr' date='05 November 2009 - 03:23 AM' timestamp='1257409433' post='52526']

You're suggesting there's areas where they overpay?



Mm... not so sure about that. They've whittled it down pretty good over the years!



Yes, you're right of course, that IS the way it works, if the doctor can prove he did a neurological exam then he'll get paid for a neurological exam, even if he only measured your skin resistance. That's called "fraud", though, I'm pretty sure...



And, another fraud, is when they bill Medicare for stuff they never actually did. That happens mostly with hospitals rather than outpatient visits, and a lot of is it honest mistakes, what happens is the doc'll tell the nurse some tests, the nurse will write 'em on the chart, and then the patient will complain loudly that no way is she gettin' into that MRI machine, so then they have to think on their feet and do somethin' quick, but somewhere on that chart it still says MRI and that's what the billing people bill for, they generally work right off the charts unless someone tells 'em otherwise. That's the hardest part of medical billing, is reading the doctor's scribble...



But these things are... um... how do we say this in capitalism? "Necessary evils"?



I mean, this is understood, right? In any kind of enforcement situation, there's going to be a few things that fall between the cracks. They only have enough enforcement resources to go after the Bernie Madoff's of the world, and anyone ripping off less than 50 billion dollars doesn't even make a blip on the radar screen. So, you get your enforcers online and they get your fraud level down to a very manageable 2%, and generally everyone's more-or-less happy with that.

[/quote]



I am quite certian they overpay, my wife works in healthcare and I get the pleasure of hearing new ways of how inefficient our government is. While I agree that there will always be some fraud/mistakes/ whatever, I certainly will never excuse or justify it. What I would do is consider a new system in which you don't say what you are willing to pay and then expect anyone to charge less than that. In fact what I might do is consider a capitalistic approach and reward those healthcare providers that charge less than the maximum, with a preferred status and eventually squeeze the others out of the system. That, non, would be what I call a capitalistc approach.



One of the biggest problems I have with reform talk today, is that they really don't focus on the problems with-in the healthcare industry that make costs horrendous. It is almost entirely focused on the insurance industry and will not solve billions of dollars of fraud, waste and abuse issues. These issues can and should be addressed.

[quote name='nonsqtr' date='05 November 2009 - 03:23 AM' timestamp='1257409433' post='52526']

You're suggesting there's areas where they overpay?



Mm... not so sure about that. They've whittled it down pretty good over the years!



Yes, you're right of course, that IS the way it works, if the doctor can prove he did a neurological exam then he'll get paid for a neurological exam, even if he only measured your skin resistance. That's called "fraud", though, I'm pretty sure...



And, another fraud, is when they bill Medicare for stuff they never actually did. That happens mostly with hospitals rather than outpatient visits, and a lot of is it honest mistakes, what happens is the doc'll tell the nurse some tests, the nurse will write 'em on the chart, and then the patient will complain loudly that no way is she gettin' into that MRI machine, so then they have to think on their feet and do somethin' quick, but somewhere on that chart it still says MRI and that's what the billing people bill for, they generally work right off the charts unless someone tells 'em otherwise. That's the hardest part of medical billing, is reading the doctor's scribble...



But these things are... um... how do we say this in capitalism? "Necessary evils"?



I mean, this is understood, right? In any kind of enforcement situation, there's going to be a few things that fall between the cracks. They only have enough enforcement resources to go after the Bernie Madoff's of the world, and anyone ripping off less than 50 billion dollars doesn't even make a blip on the radar screen. So, you get your enforcers online and they get your fraud level down to a very manageable 2%, and generally everyone's more-or-less happy with that.

[/quote]





You use an abundance of sarcasm at times, so I'm not really sure...



Are you actually saying that you think Medicare is a great thing and that we should basically all be on it?



Because, quite frankly, that scares the shit out of me.

[quote name='kmiller1610' date='05 November 2009 - 06:17 AM' timestamp='1257419852' post='52549']

That treatment will cost you $750 and there's a two week wait and if you are caught trying to buy an enema at CVS, you are subject to a $750 fine and if we find you have joined an unauthorized plan, you will lose your privilege to vote....

[/quote]



There, fixed it for you!



You have no rights, silly subject! You have only "privileges", and "immunities". Ha ha ha....



Siwwy subject, Wights awe fow kids!

[quote name='Inkslinger' date='05 November 2009 - 07:21 AM' timestamp='1257423707' post='52552']

I got infracted for that.....

[/quote]



Really? Is that an infraction? I didn't mean nothin', honest! Ha ha...



I mean, y'know, right out in the open and all - bolded, even!



Ha ha - you mean I can't misquote people like the news media does all the time? Hey man, my 1st Amendment rights are being violated!!! Unequal protection!!!! Ha ha....



Well, see, now that I know we have no rights, I can't really complain about getting 'em trampled, right?



I'll tell you one thing in all seriousness, Inky - if I have to really start working on these issues, I'm gonna be really, really, REALLY pissed. And then, it ain't gonna matter if I get infracted or not.



I am very seriously hoping, that my gubmint is wiretapping this forum and they know how we're lookin' at their silly little games. I'm hoping they'll decide to STRAIGHTEN UP THEIR ACT, 'cause I'm right on the hairy edge of saying "f*ck 'em", they've really screwed me up these past coupla years and I'm not in a very forgiving frame of mine right now. Nor am I likely to BECOME that way if this silly stupid handwaving doesn't stop.



If these clowns thought they could stop me from gettin' pissed off just by legalizing pot or some other silly-ass bone they wanna throw in my direction, they are very sadly mistaken. I am doing EVERYTHING I can to enlighten my friends and neighbors, and that is BAD NEWS FOR THE GUBMINT, it seems! You wanna know what I've discovered that REALLY scares these people? Lawsuits naming gubmint administrators in their corporate capacities! Ha ha - that scares the PISS out of 'em, and for good reason - it's the only REAL challenge to the non-existent contract they're trying to shove down my throat!



The way things are goin' right now, my next piece of education just might be a law degree. Suddenly I feel the need to know a little somethin' about the law.



(oh yeah, and maybe if I have time I'll read the forum rules during the coffee break)