Thread: The Bush administration Clearly Views The Constitution As...

its enemy and something to be gotten around rather than something to be followed and upheld at all times.

It has repeatedly violated the Constitution, international laws, and federal laws. The courts have produced a long list of rulings stating just that.

The so called "unitary executive theory" is a clear attempt to alter the Constitutionally established balance of powers.

Their legal advisors including folks like David Addington, John Yoo and of course Alberto Gonzalez have figured out that the wheels of justice turn very slowly and that if they simply assert new and never before acknowledged powers, that they can do as they please for years at a time until the courts tell them to stop.

This precedent is terribly dangerous. It is a legalistic game that they have realized that they can exploit for their entire 8 years in office to do essentially as they please. Even when their programs and actions are shot down in court, they simply assert some other skewed legal interpretation to justify their action and no matter how flimsy or unconstituional it is on its face, they get several more years of abusing their Constituional powers before it winds through the courts again.

Sadly, the only branch that has the power to stop them from employing this approach is the apparently crippeled legislative branch.

Under Republican control, they actively aided and abetted their abuse of power. They gave them cover on programs like NSA spying by saying that briefing a few hand picked legislators provided oversight. Of course they only briefed those that would let them do as they pleased. Further, they even passed blatantly Unconstituional laws like the Military Commissions Act when Bush's "unitary executive" detention programs were delared unconstitutional allowing them to just keep up the abuses even longer.

Of course that legislations has now been shot down by the federal courts. But, it bought the Bush administration even more time to hold these folks in violation of the Constitution. Now, it gets appealed or just sent back for another round of delays and new asserted theories that keep the abuses going until the next round of court rejections. Meanwhile, those who's rights are being violated are still screwed for another round of this legalistic delay tactics.

The Democratic controlled congress is little better. They are less willing to provide direct cover than the Republicans did. However, they will not even consider doing what they must to stop then, impeaching them for their repeated violations of the Constitution and laws of this country, a clear abuse of their office.

Then you get right wingers who simply say over and over, "Hey, if they are really as out of line as people claim, then why will no one impeach? Since they haven't, clearly what they are doing is just fine." Or they simply make the argument echoing that of the administration that the administration is not acting criminally, they are just asserting powers that must be tested and tested and tested again ad nausem while people continue to be victims of their illegal policies.

The whole approach is nothing more than legalistic contortion that lets them continue to breech our Constitution and laws for 8 years. If Congress refuses to impeach to stop them, they are setting the precedent that they and all future presidents can simply assert powers that they clearly do not have for years and years at a time while violating the law and people's rights. There is only one branch that can really stop that from bring our future, the legislative.

The judiciary has been doing its job in the system of checks and balances. But we have a three branch systm of checks and balances. The legislative MUST now step up and make it clear that this kind of approach to executive power WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. Impeachment is the only to make that statement.

This analysis needs to be discussed and has not really been anywhere else that I've seen.

(I'm in excrutiating pain as I write this and will probably take a while to get back to responses (recently disgnosed kidney stones are killing me and have kept me away from posting for days) and I know that it is a long post.


But, PLEASE read it in detail and get back to me on this as I think it it perhaps the single most all encompassing analysis of the current situation I've seen. Well, I have not seen it. I had to write it. This is a great place to hash out the ideas presented.)

A little late to be worrying about the US CONSTITUTION. It started getting shredded back before & during the US Civil Was & has never slowed down.
FDR done some shredding of his own too with his Office of Censorship, bring it on through & up to now. Don't forget about the UN & them usurping power.

Larry Elder

Excellent analysis and write up. I'm very sorry to hear about your kidney stones. Ouch. :jawdrop:

The history of the USA is a history of tests of the Constitution and the power struggles of the different branches. I see Nancy Polosi attempting to esurp executive power with her negotiations of terrorists states in the midle east. The Senate attemted to take away some power of the Commander in Chief with the attempted "time line".

I think the whole idea is that a branch can only push it so far and the other branches push back. It all evens out in the end.

Originally Posted by Migi e!

A little late to be worrying about the US CONSTITUTION. It started getting shredded back before & during the US Civil Was & has never slowed down.
FDR done some shredding of his own too with his Office of Censorship, bring it on through & up to now. Don't forget about the UN & them usurping power.

Larry Elder

Well I for one an not willing to just declare the Constitution dead as you seem ready to do. The president and VP take an oath of office to uphold and defend that document. It will die if we are unwilling to fight for it and the only thing at this point that can be done is impeachment.

FDR did violate the Constituion. However that violation was reversed by the courts and those who's rights he violated were paid compensation. Balance was restored and until now no other president had repaeated anything as eggregious as that.

I am still waiting on you to explain just how the UN is supposedly usurping the Constitution. I have asked you repeatedly to explain how that is happening and others have too. You never do. You simply assert it over and over. Please explain in detail how that is happening.

Originally Posted by justoneman

The history of the USA is a history of tests of the Constitution and the power struggles of the different branches. I see Nancy Polosi attempting to esurp executive power with her negotiations of terrorists states in the midle east. The Senate attemted to take away some power of the Commander in Chief with the attempted "time line".

I think the whole idea is that a branch can only push it so far and the other branches push back. It all evens out in the end.

Three points.

First, there is always pushing. However, this president has pushed so much farther on so many different issues than anyone else I can think of in history.

Second, there is no meaningful pushback from Congreess and has not been since this administration took office. None. As noted above the courts have pushed back hard. But, their power as I have shown is limited. It takes both other branches to do the job and one is missing in action. They themselves have even helped this administration rather than pushed back against it through actions like rushing through the unconstituional MCA.

Third, you speak as if this is merely some accademic excersize. If it were just some abstract issue, that would be one thing. But real people are involved. Real people are the victims of these repeated violations of the Constituion and laws. I can not simply tolerate that and hope that balalce returns. Those people (and all of us) need the Congress to do their part i the checking and balancing. As long as people talk about this as if it is just some abstract theoretical debate, they never will. Congress must be pressured into doing their job.

As I noted, this is not just about this administration. They are setting a pattern of behavior for future administration's to follow. Congress must act if this is not to become standard opperating procedure for future adminstrations that have seen that this aproach gets them essentially unchecked power to do basically anything they choose at least for seeral years at a shot. These are our inalienable rights we are talking about and they need to be protected. We are the front line in that defense. WE must take action.

Originally Posted by justoneman

The history of the USA is a history of tests of the Constitution and the power struggles of the different branches. I see Nancy Polosi attempting to esurp executive power with her negotiations of terrorists states in the midle east.

LOL, so Newt and all the other Speakers before Nancy never traveled to other nations and spoke with their leaders? Other speakers have never gone on fact finding missions and Nancy was all by herself and no republicans traveled with her, is that it?

The Senate attemted to take away some power of the Commander in Chief with the attempted "time line".

Go look at the Constitution and tell me what it says the job of Congress really is. I think they are responsible for the funding of the military and it doesn't say squat about no questions asked and not time tables.

I think the whole idea is that a branch can only push it so far and the other branches push back. It all evens out in the end.

And Congress is pushing back and trying to do its job and conduct the oversight needed to conduct its job. Problem is, some folks call their investigations "witch hunts" and don't see them as necessary to do their jobs and to maintain the balance of power.

The abuse of the executive office powers has never been as extreme as it is today. Congress is trying to restore the proper balance, but some folks think they are just on witch hunts.

Originally Posted by Distressed American

Well I for one an not willing to just declare the Constitution dead as you seem ready to do. The president and VP take an oath of office to uphold and defend that document. It will die if we are unwilling to fight for it and the only thing at this point that can be done is impeachment.

FDR did violate the Constituion. However that violation was reversed by the courts and those who's rights he violated were paid compensation. Balance was restored and until now no other president had repaeated anything as eggregious as that.

I am still waiting on you to explain just how the UN is supposedly usurping the Constitution. I have asked you repeatedly to explain how that is happening and others have too. You never do. You simply assert it over and over. Please explain in detail how that is happening.

No, I am not willing to let it go, I am just pointing out the obvious, this isn't anything new.
Congresses have had their slashing knives on that document as well.
Still the the UN should be able to lay down laws to us?

Originally Posted by Migi e!

A little late to be worrying about the US CONSTITUTION. It started getting shredded back before & during the US Civil Was & has never slowed down.
FDR done some shredding of his own too with his Office of Censorship, bring it on through & up to now. Don't forget about the UN & them usurping power.

Larry Elder

Larry Elder, chea.

Originally Posted by Distressed American

its enemy and something to be gotten around rather than something to be followed and upheld at all times.

It has repeatedly violated the Constitution, international laws, and federal laws. The courts have produced a long list of rulings stating just that.

The so called "unitary executive theory" is a clear attempt to alter the Constitutionally established balance of powers.

Their legal advisors including folks like David Addington, John Yoo and of course Alberto Gonzalez have figured out that the wheels of justice turn very slowly and that if they simply assert new and never before acknowledged powers, that they can do as they please for years at a time until the courts tell them to stop.

This precedent is terribly dangerous. It is a legalistic game that they have realized that they can exploit for their entire 8 years in office to do essentially as they please. Even when their programs and actions are shot down in court, they simply assert some other skewed legal interpretation to justify their action and no matter how flimsy or unconstituional it is on its face, they get several more years of abusing their Constituional powers before it winds through the courts again.

Sadly, the only branch that has the power to stop them from employing this approach is the apparently crippeled legislative branch.

Under Republican control, they actively aided and abetted their abuse of power. They gave them cover on programs like NSA spying by saying that briefing a few hand picked legislators provided oversight. Of course they only briefed those that would let them do as they pleased. Further, they even passed blatantly Unconstituional laws like the Military Commissions Act when Bush's "unitary executive" detention programs were delared unconstitutional allowing them to just keep up the abuses even longer.

Of course that legislations has now been shot down by the federal courts. But, it bought the Bush administration even more time to hold these folks in violation of the Constitution. Now, it gets appealed or just sent back for another round of delays and new asserted theories that keep the abuses going until the next round of court rejections. Meanwhile, those who's rights are being violated are still screwed for another round of this legalistic delay tactics.

The Democratic controlled congress is little better. They are less willing to provide direct cover than the Republicans did. However, they will not even consider doing what they must to stop then, impeaching them for their repeated violations of the Constitution and laws of this country, a clear abuse of their office.

Then you get right wingers who simply say over and over, "Hey, if they are really as out of line as people claim, then why will no one impeach? Since they haven't, clearly what they are doing is just fine." Or they simply make the argument echoing that of the administration that the administration is not acting criminally, they are just asserting powers that must be tested and tested and tested again ad nausem while people continue to be victims of their illegal policies.

The whole approach is nothing more than legalistic contortion that lets them continue to breech our Constitution and laws for 8 years. If Congress refuses to impeach to stop them, they are setting the precedent that they and all future presidents can simply assert powers that they clearly do not have for years and years at a time while violating the law and people's rights. There is only one branch that can really stop that from bring our future, the legislative.

The judiciary has been doing its job in the system of checks and balances. But we have a three branch systm of checks and balances. The legislative MUST now step up and make it clear that this kind of approach to executive power WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. Impeachment is the only to make that statement.

This analysis needs to be discussed and has not really been anywhere else that I've seen.

(I'm in excrutiating pain as I write this and will probably take a while to get back to responses (recently disgnosed kidney stones are killing me and have kept me away from posting for days) and I know that it is a long post.


But, PLEASE read it in detail and get back to me on this as I think it it perhaps the single most all encompassing analysis of the current situation I've seen. Well, I have not seen it. I had to write it. This is a great place to hash out the ideas presented.)

Well, first of all DA- feel better. I'm sorry to hear about your kidney stones. Hope it gets better for you soon.

On the issue of the attacks on the Constitution: this administration has made an unprecedented attempt to expand the powers of the imperial presidency. This attempt was abetted by a do-nothing Republican Congress who failed in their obligation to check this attempt. It was further exacerbated by the unwillingness of the courts to intervene in much of what transpired. That being said, the question that must be asked is this: Are the actions of the President illegal per-se? My answer is that while I object to this expansion of power, by the executive branch (and the Office of the President in particular) I do not think it is illegal. It is, however, highly problematic and sets the stage for a confrontation on Constitutional powers.

The thing that gets me, the most, on this issue is that Republicans who support this type of blatant power grab- by this administration- would decry it if a Democrat were in office. They then scratch their, metaphorical, heads in wonder when Democrats do the same thing. Clearly there is some self interest acting on both side of the political spectrum- so it's not even a clear cut political issue. I would, however, urge (on a non-partisan basis) caution in allowing ANY president to have as much unchecked power as this current administration seems to claim. Power, once conceded is NEVER reclaimed.
The time to reverse these "expansions" of presidential perogative is now- under the administration that has tried to create them. Once they become established it will be very difficult to vitiate them.