Thread: Debunking The Administration's Defenses of NSA Domestic Spying

I''ve seen a lot of these myths promoted here in the past few days. I figured may as well take them all on right now. This is a good summary of the Bush defenses for the program and why they thouroughly bogus.

Time to dispense with a few more false "true believer" talking points. :therethere:

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Bush Administration Myths about NSA Wiretapping

Click on a Bush administration myth below for relevant facts and arguments:

• Myth #1: It's lawful
• Myth #2: FISA wouldn't allow us to wiretap an Al Qaeda member calling someone in the U.S.
• Myth #3: NSA is following the Constitution with respect to the Fourth Amendment.
• Myth #4: We've informed Congress.
• Myth #5. There's plenty of oversight.
• Myth #6: Congress authorized it.
• Myth #7: The Supreme Court approves.
• Myth #8: This power derives from the Constitution.
• Myth #9: There's historical precedent.
• Myth #10: We need to do this to fight terror.
• Myth #11: Had we done this before September 11th, the attacks could have been prevented.
• Myth #12: It's a limited program.
• Myth #13: Going through FISA takes too much time.

wiretaps are harmless... unless you are planning to set off a dirty bomb in Chicago or something.

Originally Posted by sectionOne

wiretaps are harmless... unless you are planning to set off a dirty bomb in Chicago or something.

I believe that would be a variant of Myth 12:

Myth #12: It’s a limited program.
Said Gonzales, “It is an early-warning system with only one purpose: to detect and prevent the next attack on the United States.”

Reality Check:
Current law provides a 72-hour window of opportunity for wiretapping before the government must obtain a secret FISA court order to continue the wiretapping.

The Details:
The NSA program is actually limitless, because the executive branch has withheld oversight from all but a few in its own clandestine clique.

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In other words, you can not back that asssertion up. The program is/was totally secret and there is no oversight to know show who it is targeting.

Originally Posted by sectionOne

wiretaps are harmless... unless you are planning to set off a dirty bomb in Chicago or something.

It doesn't go to "I've got nothing to hide", but I want to protect my privacy and my right of free speech.

Originally Posted by Distressed American

I''ve seen a lot of these myths promoted here in the past few days. I figured may as well take them all on right now. This is a good summary of the Bush defenses for the program and why they thouroughly bogus.

Time to dispense with a few more false "true believer" talking points. :therethere:

================

Bush Administration Myths about NSA Wiretapping

Click on a Bush administration myth below for relevant facts and arguments:

Oh yes, we would find an ACLU website like this as a credible source for a debate about protecting Americans against terrorists. Got credibility? I wouldn't find anything found on this website as remotely credible.

The FISA was formed for the express purpose of stopping Nixon from spying on anti-war groups. These were US citizens. No one could have foreseen 9-11. The notion that this law was intended to prevent our Government from finding terrorists plotting murder is absurd in the extreme.

I have asked this on numerous occasions when a leftists once more attempts to enter once more in this circle of stupidity, what American citizens have had their rights abused by this program? I know why none answer this question. because the answer is NO ONE.

Here's their board, a veritable list of Leftist loonies:

BORDC Board of Directors 2006-2007
Joe W. (Chip) Pitts III, President, is founder and chair of the Bill of Rights Defense Committee of Greater Dallas. For more than 15 years he has attended the United Nations Commission on Human Rights and its Sub-Commission, assisting on international norms and treaties, such as on torture. He is also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the Pacific Council on Foreign Policy. From 2004 to 2005, he served as chairman of the board at Amnesty International USA.
Glenn C. Devitt, Treasurer, is a founder and the first volunteer chair of the New York City Bill of Rights Defense Campaign (NYCBORDC), through which thousands of grassroots activists and a local coalition of nearly one hundred organizations mobilized to pass New York City’s very strong Bill of Rights resolution.
Nancy Talanian, Secretary, is the founder and director of BORDC; member of the boards of Friends of Wissatinnewag and National Coalition to Protect Political Freedom; and a cofounder, Northampton BORDC.
Dr. Flavia Alaya cofounded the New Jersey Civil Rights Defense Committee (NJCRDC), whose goal is to engage directly with prisoners and former prisoners. She is a writer and retired professor of literature and cultural history at Ramapo College of New Jersey.
Elizabeth L. (Betty) Ball coordinated Boulder, Colorado’s campaign to pass a civil rights and civil liberties resolution, the 9th in the country to pass. She is the half-time co-administrator and the Coordinator of the Nonviolence Education Program at Boulder’s Rocky Mountain Peace and Justice Center.
Krishna S. Bhavsar studies law at Rutgers Camden Law School. Until mid-2006, she was the Program Associate for the Asian American Justice Center and the Rights Working Group, where she concentrated on human rights, civil liberties, and civil rights.
Allen J. Davis is the executive director of the Greenfield Community College Foundation in Greenfield, Massachusetts.
Kit Gage is the director of the Defending Dissent Foundation, which is an amalgam of the First Amendment Foundation and the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation (formerly the National Committee to Abolish HUAC), which Kit directed previously. Kit edited and wrote the epilogue for First Amendment Felon, a biography of NCAHUAC founder Frank Wilkinson by Robert Sherrill.
Gwen Sanchirico is the founder of Boise Patriots, which is now Idaho Patriots, for whom she coordinated campaigns to pass a resolution in Boise, followed by a statewide resolution. She is also a member of the Idaho Green Party Coordination Committee.

Here's their advisory committee:

BORDC's Advisory Board
Michael Avery is President of the National Lawyers Guild and a constitutional law professor at Suffolk Law School.
Lynne Bradley is Director of the American Library Association Office of Government Relations.
David Cole is a professor at Georgetown University of Law and a pro bono attorney with the Center for Constitutional Rights. He is author of several books, including Enemy Aliens: Double Standards and Constitutional Freedoms in the War on Terrorism.
James X. Dempsey is Executive Director of the Center for Democracy and Technology and coauthor with David Cole of Terrorism and the Constitution.
Chris Finan is President of the American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression.
Nat Hentoff is a journalist and authority on the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. His most recent book, The War on the Bill of Rights and the Gathering Resistance, includes chapters on the Bill of Rights Defense Committee and the movement of cities and towns to restore Bill of Rights protections.
Jeanne Herrick-Stare is Senior Analyst on Civil Liberties at the Friends Committee on National Legislation.
Pramila Jayapal is founder and executive director, Hate Free Zone Washington. She was born in India, and raised in India, Indonesia and Singapore.
Kate Martin is the Director of the Center for National Security Studies.
Nancy Murray is the Director of the Bill of Rights Education Project of the ACLU of Massachusetts.
William C. Newman is a civil rights attorney and the director of the Western Regional Office of the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts.
Christopher Pyle, a former U.S. Army intelligence officer, served on the Church Committee, which investigated the FBI's Counter-Intelligence Program (COINTELPRO) and drafted the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). He is a Professor of Politics at Mount Holyoke College.
Stephen Rohde is a constitutional lawyer, author and lecturer and a past president of the ACLU of Southern California. He is the author of American Words of Freedom.
Elaine Scarry is the Walter M. Cabot Professor of Aesthetics and the General Theory of Value at Harvard University. Her most recent book is entitled Who Defended the Country? A New Democracy Forum on Authoritarian versus Democratic Approaches to National Defense on 9/11.
David Sobel is Senior Counsel at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
Chris Townsend, Political Action Director of the United Electrical Workers Union (UE), drafted and supported the passage of the first civil liberties resolution to receive the support of a national labor union.
Shoba Sivaprasad Wadhia is Senior Policy Associate at the National Immigration Forum.
Howard Zinn is an historian who has taught history at Boston University and Spellman College. The best-known of his many books is A People’s History of the United States.

Board of Directors
BORDC Staff

Originally Posted by michaelr

It doesn't go to "I've got nothing to hide", but I want to protect my privacy and my right of free speech.

there is no such thing as privacy.
sorry.
why do you need privacy?

Originally Posted by sectionOne

there is no such thing as privacy.
sorry.
why do you need privacy?

Well lets see, if me or my wife is talking to a doctor, lawyer, son, or daughter, maybe a brother, a sister, a friend, a bill collector, or anyone that we should choose, than I want those calls private. If I wanted the NSA to hear me, I'll give them a call.

Originally Posted by michaelr

It doesn't go to "I've got nothing to hide", but I want to protect my privacy and my right of free speech.

Two things:

One, what in this program affects your privacy and right to free speech? Have they been denied you?

Two, you have a social security card and you have credit cards. The notion that you have your privacy is absurd. These two things alone permit millions access to your privacy. Have you borrowed money? Your credit report is available for all to see.

This notion that a program intended to protect you from another 9-11 is an invasion of YOUR privacy is absurd. But then, being absurd seems to be the forte' of the left, the media and their Democrat allies these days.

After all, we all know that Osama is our buddy and Bush is the enemy. :wink wink:

Originally Posted by Truth Detector

Oh yes, we would find an ACLU website like this as a credible source for a debate about protecting Americans against terrorists. Got credibility? I wouldn't find anything found on this website as remotely credible.

The FISA was formed for the express purpose of stopping Nixon from spying on anti-war groups. These were US citizens. No one could have foreseen 9-11. The notion that this law was intended to prevent our Government from finding terrorists plotting murder is absurd in the extreme.

I have asked this on numerous occasions when a leftists once more attempts to enter once more in this circle of stupidity, what American citizens have had their rights abused by this program? I know why none answer this question. because the answer is NO ONE.

Here's their board, a veritable list of Leftist loonies:

BORDC Board of Directors 2006-2007
Joe W. (Chip) Pitts III, President, is founder and chair of the Bill of Rights Defense Committee of Greater Dallas. For more than 15 years he has attended the United Nations Commission on Human Rights and its Sub-Commission, assisting on international norms and treaties, such as on torture. He is also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the Pacific Council on Foreign Policy. From 2004 to 2005, he served as chairman of the board at Amnesty International USA.
Glenn C. Devitt, Treasurer, is a founder and the first volunteer chair of the New York City Bill of Rights Defense Campaign (NYCBORDC), through which thousands of grassroots activists and a local coalition of nearly one hundred organizations mobilized to pass New York City’s very strong Bill of Rights resolution.
Nancy Talanian, Secretary, is the founder and director of BORDC; member of the boards of Friends of Wissatinnewag and National Coalition to Protect Political Freedom; and a cofounder, Northampton BORDC.
Dr. Flavia Alaya cofounded the New Jersey Civil Rights Defense Committee (NJCRDC), whose goal is to engage directly with prisoners and former prisoners. She is a writer and retired professor of literature and cultural history at Ramapo College of New Jersey.
Elizabeth L. (Betty) Ball coordinated Boulder, Colorado’s campaign to pass a civil rights and civil liberties resolution, the 9th in the country to pass. She is the half-time co-administrator and the Coordinator of the Nonviolence Education Program at Boulder’s Rocky Mountain Peace and Justice Center.
Krishna S. Bhavsar studies law at Rutgers Camden Law School. Until mid-2006, she was the Program Associate for the Asian American Justice Center and the Rights Working Group, where she concentrated on human rights, civil liberties, and civil rights.
Allen J. Davis is the executive director of the Greenfield Community College Foundation in Greenfield, Massachusetts.
Kit Gage is the director of the Defending Dissent Foundation, which is an amalgam of the First Amendment Foundation and the National Committee Against Repressive Legislation (formerly the National Committee to Abolish HUAC), which Kit directed previously. Kit edited and wrote the epilogue for First Amendment Felon, a biography of NCAHUAC founder Frank Wilkinson by Robert Sherrill.
Gwen Sanchirico is the founder of Boise Patriots, which is now Idaho Patriots, for whom she coordinated campaigns to pass a resolution in Boise, followed by a statewide resolution. She is also a member of the Idaho Green Party Coordination Committee.

If they are so looney, you should be able to debunk their challenges to this policy. I do not see you doing that.

I have answered your question. There were plaintiffs in the NSA case. Their names are listed on the suit. The judge ruled that the violations were not insubstantial that they were quite serious.

From those "looney lefties" at CNN:

CNN.com - NSA eavesdropping program ruled unconstitutional - Aug 17, 2006

In a 44-page memorandum and order, U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor struck down the NSA program, which she said violates the rights to free speech and privacy. (Read the complete ruling -- PDF)

The defendants "are permanently enjoined from directly or indirectly utilizing the Terrorist Surveillance Program in any way, including, but not limited to, conducting warrantless wiretaps of telephone and Internet communications, in contravention of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and Title III," she wrote.

She declared that the program "violates the separation of powers doctrine, the Administrative Procedures Act, the First and Fourth amendments to the United States Constitution, the FISA and Title III."

Her ruling went on to say that "the president of the United States ... has undisputedly violated the Fourth in failing to procure judicial orders."

The lawsuit, filed January 17 by civil rights organizations, lawyers, journalists and educators, "challenges the constitutionality of a secret government program to intercept vast quantities of the international telephone and Internet communications of innocent Americans without court approval."

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The plaintiffs alleged their communications with parties outside the country were being monitored by the NSA's wiretapping program. The complaint said the NSA's surveillance disrupts "the ability of the plaintiffs to talk with sources, locate witnesses, conduct scholarship and engage in advocacy."


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I assume that is the last time you will need to ask that question. It has been answered.