Thread: "Lose Moral Legitimacy, Lose the War"

I've seen folks here try to minimize particular torture techniques to drunken frat party games, call torture victims like John McCain and great generals like Colin Powell pussies, and endore torture in hypothetical scenarios ranging from personally ripping a guys nuts off with pliers in order to save a single life all the way up to 99% certainty that the guy has an active nuke about to go off in a major city.

Throughout I and others have maintained that ANY torture was immoral, illegal and counter-productive, producing more enemes than it neutralizes, especially in counter insurgency and a symetric warfare. We've said that it harmed and killed innocents in increasing numbers as those tortured give up innocents and that in cases where torture is not used and jury trials are the incidents of innocents brutalized are greatly reudced.

Such talk was labeled anti-American and ignorant of the threats we face out of hand.

Every word we've said on the topic completely agrees with the recently published and often discussed Counter Insurgency Manual that was written for the U.S. Army by General Patraeus.

Wonder why he hates America? He must not understand the brutality of the enemy we face and how the treats have changed since the laws were written! These folks will cut your head off!



I've pulled out the sections dealing with torture from the PDF for everyone. I can think of no more authoritative source to back up my argument.

The original full document is here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24fd.pdf

Discuss...

honey, there are more important things than morals and ethics.
further your definition of both is a little immature.
if you get stuck in a whirlpool you are the one who has to climb out. I wish you luck.

Originally Posted by sectionOne

honey, there are more important things than morals and ethics.
further your definition of both is a little immature.
if you get stuck in a whirlpool you are the one who has to climb out. I wish you luck.

Tell it to General Patreaus. He clearly states that torture or even "panties on the head" is unacceptable under any conditions, that would include waterboarding which is banned by the UCMJ. It is counterproductive. It undermines our moral authority which is critical to winning in asymmetric warfare.

Totally immature.

Originally Posted by Distressed American

Tell it to General Patreaus. He clearly states that torture or even "panties on the head" is unacceptable under any conditions, that would include waterboarding which is banned by the UCMJ. It is counterproductive. It undermines our moral authority which is critical to winning in asymmetric warfare.

Totally immature.

General Patreaus is doing a job. he will say what he is paid to say.
like I told you before. let one of these guys rape your girl in front of you, stick a knife in her vagina when he's done, then kill your kids in front of your eyes, you will be watching because your eyelids are cut off. and then he will take your skin off slowly.
this happens. alot.
if you think it's more important to respect these guys because we are Americans and right and just and stand up for morals and ethics... you go right ahead. in the real world things aren't asymetric. I promise.

I agree, it will be the best in the long run if we go by high standards. but how about if those high standards include those that are capable of using methods against enemies that will allow us to keep our freedom and life style that we currently enjoy? in which case you are going to have to maturely accept that there are men who are doing things that you just talk about and are afraid of.

Originally Posted by sectionOne

General Patreaus is doing a job. he will say what he is paid to say.
like I told you before. let one of these guys rape your girl in front of you, stick a knife in her vagina when he's done, then kill your kids in front of your eyes, you will be watching because your eyelids are cut off. and then he will take your skin off slowly.

OMG! I'm SO sorry. I didn't realize that you'd been through all of that I don't know what to say.

Now I understand why you think you know what is more effective in fighting these rapists and killers than years of military professionals and experts in counter-insrugency tactics currently running the war you support.

May I offer you my condolences on your ordeal....

The terrorists have no moral legitimacy. They rule through fear and indescriminate violence. We can not present a credible alternative to that if we too are ruling by fear and indescriminate violence. People must know that we are a safe alternative to barbarity. That is the most effective tactic known to beat people that fight like this.

If we let ourselves become barbarians who do our potential allies turn to?

I figured more people would show up to tell me why Patraeus was dead wrong.
:whistling:

even your pal Murtha is a corrupt piece of shit.
Murtha accused of rules violation - Politico.com

and good luck with your anti-american rants.
I hope you feel good that you have betrayed what this country stands for and shown no support for the freedom you enjoy.

Originally Posted by sectionOne

even your pal Murtha is a corrupt piece of shit.
Murtha accused of rules violation - Politico.com

Please try to stay on topic Section. This thread is not about Murtha. You may want to reread from the start.