Thread: Reform healthcare now, take on insurance co's later

[quote name='Pragmatist' date='08 October 2009 - 07:00 AM' timestamp='1254999657' post='34265']

I see, and for those that do ignore it there is a dumpster out back for them to pitch your corpse in? Ain't gonna happen.

[/quote]



Want to talk about a waste of healthcare dollars? For many of us, the figures show that we spend more in the last few weeks of life for healthcare that will give us a few more days of life (usually in a hospital hooked up to a machine) than we have expended our entire life before then. If it is going to cost $1 million to keep me alive for two weeks on a machine, save your money. Give me enough drugs to keep me relatively pain free and let me go bask in the sun somewhere, spend time with my family, and make my peace with my Creator.



We have a queer way of viewing healthcare in this country. We need a fundamental change of attitude. You aint gonna live forever. We can't all go to the Cleveland Clinic for heart surgery. We can't all have Michael DeBakey (now deceased) fit us with an artificial heart.



As for your "dumpster out back," you might as well use it for all the healthcare dollars you want to continue to waste.

[quote name='Pragmatist' date='08 October 2009 - 06:05 AM' timestamp='1254996317' post='34255']

Doctors fed up with the current system aren't going to practice at your free clinic. Many doctors practice on a limited basis, mine is closed on thur and fri every week.



When you are diagnosed with something such as cancer and are facing 50k for treatment can you get that at your clinic for free too?

[/quote]yes you can.

[quote name='uncommonman' date='07 October 2009 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1254978502' post='34228']

Last I checked, no one has ever been cured of any malady nor any disease prevented by holding a little plastic card. I have yet to hear of any physician prescribing a little plastic card for the treatment of any disease, illness, or injury. Health insurance does not heal patients, medical professionals do.[/quote]



I get the point, but the example you're using is akin to comparing the engine of a car to the brakes (a little different than apples and oranges!). They both deal with the "process" of health care, but from completely different points of view...



I disagree that reform CAN be accomplished in a piecemeal way. If the currently proposed legislation passes (and it looks like it might) without addressing "cost" as well as "access", about the only "reform" we'll have is much higher insurance premiums that are even more unaffordable for individuals and small/medium sized businesses.



[quote name='uncommonman' date='07 October 2009 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1254978502' post='34228']

These are the facts:



1. At some point in most American lives they will require some sort of health treatment.

2. This care many times is out of reach of the financial warewithall of most Americans to foot the bill on their own.

3. You can afford treatment through health insurance but the insurance itself will not heal you.

4. Some of the affirmities are contageous and may be spread without intent to others.

5. Poor health and affirmities have costs that go beyond actual treatment.



Add them all up and it is clear that quality healthcare is something we need (individually and collectively).[/quote]



You're stating the obvious here, but #3 in particular makes no sense at all. The debate is not what heals you, but who heals you and when, and who pays how much. It is not in the best interests of the insurance industry to be efficient, and since they serve no purpose in the process other than to pay the doctor for us (at a profit), they do nothing but add cost and inefficiency to the system.



[quote name='uncommonman' date='07 October 2009 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1254978502' post='34228']

Additional facts:



1. While basic healthcare is necessary, cosmetic surgery and elective procedures are not.

2. Not everyone can go to Johns Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic for medical treatment.

3. Lawsuits drive up the cost of healthcare.

4. Americans are largely unaware of the cost of the procedures they undergo.

5. Physicians spend more time filling out paperwork than treating patients.

6. Doctors are leaving the system, retiring early, refusing to practice certain medical fields of medicine, and new doctors are less attracted to becoming doctors in the first place.

7. Insurance companies look to cut costs anyway they can. These cost cutting measures may be detrimental to the patient, the doctor, or both.[/quote]



These are mostly great points. The one I find most important is #5. Ask any doctor if he'd rather fill out private health insurance forms, or Medicare....Insurance companies make their money by denying claims, paying doctors the least amount possible, and by creating a complex system to justify their "necessity" to the system. And guess what, unless we put an end to corporate "personification" this FACT is not likely to change. Probably the most important issue currently being considered by the supreme court is whether corporations should have the same civil rights as individuals to participate in the electoral process. Be VERY afraid if they do.



[quote name='uncommonman' date='07 October 2009 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1254978502' post='34228']

How do we fix the system?



The answer is simple. How we get there is complex.



Simple answer...Reform healthcare first. After we do that, fix the health insurance industry.[/quote]



I won't belabor the point, as my view on this is above, but I believe the exact opposite is true. If we're going to do ANYTHING at all to reform health care, we'll first need the public option to control costs, and simultaneously improve access by removing the ticking time bomb of loopholes in coverage created by the insurance capitalists. But to do that, we'll first have to end corporate/government corruption by taking away the special interest right to lobby (influence our laws).



-sensored

[quote name='CommonSensor' date='08 October 2009 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1255054332' post='34843']

I get the point, but the example you're using is akin to comparing the engine of a car to the brakes (a little different than apples and oranges!). They both deal with the "process" of health care, but from completely different points of view...



I disagree that reform CAN be accomplished in a piecemeal way. If the currently proposed legislation passes (and it looks like it might) without addressing "cost" as well as "access", about the only "reform" we'll have is much higher insurance premiums that are even more unaffordable for individuals and small/medium sized businesses.







You're stating the obvious here, but #3 in particular makes no sense at all. The debate is not what heals you, but who heals you and when, and who pays how much. It is not in the best interests of the insurance industry to be efficient, and since they serve no purpose in the process other than to pay the doctor for us (at a profit), they do nothing but add cost and inefficiency to the system.







These are mostly great points. The one I find most important is #5. Ask any doctor if he'd rather fill out private health insurance forms, or Medicare....Insurance companies make their money by denying claims, paying doctors the least amount possible, and by creating a complex system to justify their "necessity" to the system. And guess what, unless we put an end to corporate "personification" this FACT is not likely to change. Probably the most important issue currently being considered by the supreme court is whether corporations should have the same civil rights as individuals to participate in the electoral process. Be VERY afraid if they do.







I won't belabor the point, as my view on this is above, but I believe the exact opposite is true. If we're going to do ANYTHING at all to reform health care, we'll first need the public option to control costs, and simultaneously improve access by removing the ticking time bomb of loopholes in coverage created by the insurance capitalists. But to do that, we'll first have to end corporate/government corruption by taking away the special interest right to lobby (influence our laws).



-sensored

[/quote]



Welcome to the forum CommonSensor. We discussed health care briefly on another forum recently, if you remember. Glad to see you discussing this important issue on Political Hotwire.

[quote name='Christopher' date='08 October 2009 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1255057431' post='34860']

Welcome to the forum CommonSensor. We discussed health care briefly on another forum recently, if you remember. Glad to see you discussing this important issue on Political Hotwire.

[/quote]

Yessir! Thanks..Good to see you as well. Glad to see the "sensible" migration of people that "think better" hehehe.....Look forward to reading some of your ideas. -s

[quote name='CommonSensor' date='08 October 2009 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1255057816' post='34868']

Yessir! Thanks..Good to see you as well. Glad to see the "sensible" migration of people that "think better" hehehe.....Look forward to reading some of your ideas. -s

[/quote]



My problem is that I do not have a lot of time to spend on forums, with taking care of 5 kids and everything that goes with that, but I will participate as much as I can. Healthcare is an important topic to discuss and I appreciate your passion for it.