Thread: About that bailout...

I will admit to being thoroughly puzzled by this whole affair. I know the entire economy is in trouble, and I'm inclined to believe the various economists when they say that we need to do something in order to avoid a national or global catastrophe.

I've heard plenty--almost too much--from people of a libertarian or free market bent, although it's clear that a great many people in the US see the whole thing either as a scam or as some kind of socialism. At the same time, other good people are asking serious and thoughtful questions without going to either extreme.

Back in my long-ago college days, I took an introductory course in economics, and learned a few things, like what the GDP is, although in those days we called it the Gross National Product. Since then, things seem to have gotten incalculably more complex at the same time as more and more people seem to have become economic fundamentalists, pledging practically religious allegiance to the "free market."

So far as I can see, the market is a lot freer than it was since Reagan came into office. Deregulation seems to be the new republican religion. In its wake, we've had market/economy scandal after scandal, along with a proliferation of financial "products," which seem to me to be nothing but increasingly ingenious ways to skim a few more bucks off people who get entranced by some vain hope of getting rich quick.

My first question to those who consider themselves economic experts then, is what the fuck is the value of the financial "products?" Who benefits from them? Do they do some inherent good for the American people? Or are they just sophisticated ways for slimeballs to grab a few bucks?

I wonder if anyone can measure and tell us to what extent these various get rich quick schemes have contributed to our current crisis? I'm not interested on one liners, either about "constitutionality' by some self-appointed authority, or smartass one-liners from the various posters here whose stock in trade that is. And don't waste my time blaming it on the criminally high salaries of Wall Street executives. I already know about all that shit.

What I want to learn is what some intelligent, serious people think is going to be necessary to get to a national economy that's on an even keel and fairly devoid of the casino/lottery gambling mindset that seems to rule the market these days.

Does anyone REALLY care about finding a real place for the US in the world market as something other than a humongous financial manipulator? Is there a way that the 300 million people in this country can look forward to a productive life doing something other than asking "do you want fries with that?"

I am deadly serious about these questions--not necessarily for answers to my sarcastic or angry questions--bot for some ideas from people with good sense. I want to hear from people who can say something intelligent, not just people who simply repeat the same old slogans.

PS: Just so no one will think I'm cheating, I'm posting this in a couple of other forums. Some of you may see it elsewhere. I'm not being lazy so much as looking for thoughtful answers.

The nation could start by balancing the budget and start paying down the debt. Stop the war, cut spending on defense by 200 billion, stop taking funds from the social security trust fund, stop foreign aid, start a national initiative to rebuild our infrastructure, look for ways to cut spending on entitlements, throw out NAFTA, CAFTA, and raise tariffs on imported goods, eliminate tax cuts until the budget is balanced just to start with.

Originally Posted by anonnymous

The nation could start by balancing the budget and start paying down the debt. Stop the war, cut spending on defense by 200 billion, stop taking funds from the social security trust fund, stop foreign aid, start a national initiative to rebuild our infrastructure, look for ways to cut spending on entitlements, throw out NAFTA, CAFTA, and raise tariffs on imported goods, eliminate tax cuts until the budget is balanced just to start with.

Nah, that would make too much sense.

Buck, you have asked the same questions I have been asking for many years now. I used to call it the "Beanie Baby" economy, then the Seinfeld economy, as I decided it was based on nothing. The actual value of anything from labor to comodities to finished products, has been totally distorted by the electronic herd, economic trends (like fashion apparently) and many other bullshit schemes.

I have no answers for you, except to say that a true economic crisis might actually get people back to thinking about what a healthy economy might look like, and that would probably be worth all that imaginary money going "poof".

Originally Posted by anonnymous

The nation could start by balancing the budget and start paying down the debt. Stop the war, cut spending on defense by 200 billion, stop taking funds from the social security trust fund, stop foreign aid, start a national initiative to rebuild our infrastructure, look for ways to cut spending on entitlements, throw out NAFTA, CAFTA, and raise tariffs on imported goods, eliminate tax cuts until the budget is balanced just to start with.

Right on everything but defense, 200 billion is a drop in the bucket, hell this fucked up war in Iraq will clip us at least...at least 3 trillion after interest, that does not take into account the burden that it has put on the dollar. The missile defense is trillions, after all the smoke has cleared, Afghanistan, bases for out dated treaties, etc, we are talking 100s of trillions after all the facts and figures are in. Just think what this country could be like, it staggers the imagination!

Originally Posted by michaelr

Right on everything but defense, 200 billion is a drop in the bucket, hell this fucked up war in Iraq will clip us at least...at least 3 trillion after interest, that does not take into account the burden that it has put on the dollar. The missile defense is trillions, after all the smoke has cleared, Afghanistan, bases for out dated treaties, etc, we are talking 100s of trillions after all the facts and figures are in. Just think what this country could be like, it staggers the imagination!

Great post Michael. The one thing that stands out is the interest on the war on terrorism. Nobody wants to talk about the interest on any outstanding loans this country owes. I don't know if this totally true, but I was wondering if the same banks we are going to bail out also hold some of the notes on this war?

Originally Posted by steezer

Great post Michael. The one thing that stands out is the interest on the war on terrorism. Nobody wants to talk about the interest on any outstanding loans this country owes. I don't know if this totally true, but I was wondering if the same banks we are going to bail out also hold some of the notes on this war?

Good point, I am sure these banks are lending to defense contractors, or at least subs, and in that respect I would guess that they are making plenty. The war on terror along with the multi trillion dollar war on drugs are designed to make money for a very small portion of the country and neither will be "won" or over. Hell we do not know what winning is, you certainly will never get rid of drugs, and I am very sure that we are creating more terrorist now then in anytime in the history of this country, meanwhile we enslave people in prisons and others to debt. This whole way of doing this has to come to an end before total collapse is the only option.