Thread: About that Troop Surge, looks like the Democrats were wrong AGAIN!

Originally Posted by Think for myself

Can you please post a link to verify this? I have searched online and have found nothing that even comes close to supporting your statement.

Here you go:

"...
Iraqi Security Forces (ISF) is the Multi-National Force-Iraq name for forces that serve under the Government of Iraq. I.e. the Military of Iraq, which is administered by the Ministry of Defense, and the Iraqi Police, which is administered by the Ministry of Interior. The Iraqi Security Forces are trained by the Iraqi Government with assistance from Multi-National Security Transition Command - Iraq. The Iraqi Government and Multi-National Force Iraq have planned that Iraqi Security Forces will assume full responsibility for providing security for the Iraqi people during year 2007. At the same time, there are concerns regarding occurrences of displaced loyalties and sectarian agendas within the force.
The number of trained and equipped ISF has been an often cited benchmark of progress in the Iraq War. As of March 2007, there were 330,000 ISF trained and equipped.[1] Prime minister Maliki announced October 31st, 2006, that the size of the Iraqi Security Forces will increase from 325,000 to 355,000 members. This will provide three additional division headquarters and a reformed leave policy...."


Iraqi Security Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by justoneman

Here you go:

"...
Iraqi Security Forces (ISF) is the Multi-National Force-Iraq name for forces that serve under the Government of Iraq. I.e. the Military of Iraq, which is administered by the Ministry of Defense, and the Iraqi Police, which is administered by the Ministry of Interior. The Iraqi Security Forces are trained by the Iraqi Government with assistance from Multi-National Security Transition Command - Iraq. The Iraqi Government and Multi-National Force Iraq have planned that Iraqi Security Forces will assume full responsibility for providing security for the Iraqi people during year 2007. At the same time, there are concerns regarding occurrences of displaced loyalties and sectarian agendas within the force.
The number of trained and equipped ISF has been an often cited benchmark of progress in the Iraq War. As of March 2007, there were 330,000 ISF trained and equipped.[1] Prime minister Maliki announced October 31st, 2006, that the size of the Iraqi Security Forces will increase from 325,000 to 355,000 members. This will provide three additional division headquarters and a reformed leave policy...."


Iraqi Security Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you very much. Excellent way to back up your argument.

Originally Posted by justoneman

The Iraqis have an army of 335,000 and growing.

This is my point - who do you mean by "Iraqis"? Even the army is highly fractured along sectarian lines. Who do you think would fight a civil war, school teachers?

Originally Posted by Latherty

This is my point - who do you mean by "Iraqis"? Even the army is highly fractured along sectarian lines. Who do you think would fight a civil war, school teachers?

by Iraqis I mean Iraqis.

Originally Posted by justoneman

by Iraqis I mean Iraqis.

Iraq as a country was invented by the British who put the Sunnis in charge to oppress the Kurds and the Shia's so as to maintain stability over oil supply. There are no Iraqi's because there is no Iraq - its just a fiction. So when we say that there is an "army" of 335,000 Iraqis, we are actually saying that there is a Sunni army and a Shia army, each of significant size, armed and trained by the US. And they are going to kick the living sh*t out of eachother as soon as they can.

Originally Posted by Latherty

Iraq as a country was invented by the British who put the Sunnis in charge to oppress the Kurds and the Shia's so as to maintain stability over oil supply. There are no Iraqi's because there is no Iraq - its just a fiction. So when we say that there is an "army" of 335,000 Iraqis, we are actually saying that there is a Sunni army and a Shia army, each of significant size, armed and trained by the US. And they are going to kick the living sh*t out of eachother as soon as they can.

The USA is an invention too. You will find all countries has some different ethnic groups within them. Japan, Spain, England, USA, Russia, Germany, India, the list goes on and on. By Iraqi I mean Iraqi.

Originally Posted by justoneman

The USA is an invention too. You will find all countries has some different ethnic groups within them. Japan, Spain, England, USA, Russia, Germany, India, the list goes on and on. By Iraqi I mean Iraqi.

What is different about Iraq is that they didn't decide to form a country together, or even that one party conquered another. What is pretty much unique about Iraq is that the British threw the keys to the Sunni minority when they left, on the understanding that the Sunnis would keep the region under control. The Shias and the Sunnis broke apart 26 years after the Prophet died - and they have been killing eachother ever since. Iraq is physically sitting right on the line between the two gangs. No amount of pamphlets and elections is going to stop this war. The only exit strategy for Iraq that will stop the killing, I think, is for the US to hand the keys one of them, give them a wink and a nod to oppress the others and then hit the road...or split the country into three.

Originally Posted by Latherty

What is different about Iraq is that they didn't decide to form a country together, or even that one party conquered another. What is pretty much unique about Iraq is that the British threw the keys to the Sunni minority when they left, on the understanding that the Sunnis would keep the region under control. The Shias and the Sunnis broke apart 26 years after the Prophet died - and they have been killing eachother ever since. Iraq is physically sitting right on the line between the two gangs. No amount of pamphlets and elections is going to stop this war. The only exit strategy for Iraq that will stop the killing, I think, is for the US to hand the keys one of them, give them a wink and a nod to oppress the others and then hit the road...or split the country into three.

Tell the admin from Spain that there is no ethnic problem in Spain. Tell the members from England that there is not conflict in their country about the ethnic and culteral diferences of people there. Look they may have big differnces but that does not mean it is not possible for them to keep their country. Even now the mostly Shiit government is attacking radical Shiit groups in Iraq. They are showing the other ethnic groups in Iraq that there is no favoritism.

Originally Posted by justoneman

Tell the admin from Spain that there is no ethnic problem in Spain. Tell the members from England that there is not conflict in their country about the ethnic and culteral diferences of people there. Look they may have big differnces but that does not mean it is not possible for them to keep their country. Even now the mostly Shiit government is attacking radical Shiit groups in Iraq. They are showing the other ethnic groups in Iraq that there is no favoritism.

Both countries have a history of violent oppression, but now live (mostly) peacefully. That is why oppression can work - up to a point, to stabilise things until the other pillars of democractic process are established...

The main rule is to establish law and order, which is why I agree with the troop surge, and it seems to be working. My problem is what to follow it with - multiparty rule under a democratic process or violent oppression by one faction over another. I fear the former will not hold and chaos will break out again, with much more killing...

But I sure share your hope that democracy will flourish.

Originally Posted by Latherty

Both countries have a history of violent oppression, but now live (mostly) peacefully. That is why oppression can work - up to a point, to stabilise things until the other pillars of democractic process are established...

The main rule is to establish law and order, which is why I agree with the troop surge, and it seems to be working. My problem is what to follow it with - multiparty rule under a democratic process or violent oppression by one faction over another. I fear the former will not hold and chaos will break out again, with much more killing...

But I sure share your hope that democracy will flourish.

The Sadar city stronghold of the radical Al Sadar was never cleaned out. this is the first time. After it is cleaned out it will be easier to hold nd control. the plan is to have the Iraqis police this area themselves after it is cleared. I am sure al Sadar will not be allowed to return to Iraq by the Iraqi government.